Denny Prokopos v Eddie Cummings - Gracie Nationals 2015

Regarding the takedown vs. butt-scooting opinion, I'll just reference one match at the last Metamoris. Vinny Magaelhaes vs. that dude from Marcelo's. Vinny ended up jumping guard since things had grown stale on the feet. Not playing for points. I feel like Denny bet on himself in this match as he should and everyone should every match and there was just a scenario that he got caught. I can't speak for him, but when I got footlocked twice in the same tournament I got home that night and reviewed the SHIT outta footlock escapes. A dude of Denny's caliber is gonna wreck people from this experience.

Originally Posted by bobby rivers

The fact that if Denny didn't engage. Eddie would still be sitting there..

The same can be said about standing up to though look at Nathan Orchards match in MI a few months back, Denny had the same freedom to sit first as well. Like it was said Denny obliviously felt ok attacking from top if there was gonna be any complaint of the match i would pick at the body triangle where he just kind of sat there to tire him out. I thought it was an excellent match also dont understand the gripe of sitting as long as your being aggressive with it. Even if you aren't then it should just leave you open for passes.

He wasn't being aggressive while sitting. He was aggressive when engaged. You can initiate attacks from a seated position, as opposed to just countering pass attempts.

The thing I keep coming back to is the effect this will have on submission grappling over the long term. We are still riding the wave of our connection to MMA's initial popularity. But, that may end one day.

Let's say you're a 22 year old guy shopping around for a combat sport. Do you choose boxing, muay thai, SAMBO, Judo, wrestling, or the one where your first move is to sit down and menacingly scoot towards your opponent?

I know which one would look the least like fighting to an uneducated 22 year old. It is also probably the last one he would pick.

I see nothing wrong with Eddie sitting down and not willing to wrestle. Who cares about what your opponent does? He sits down, go pass his guard. He keeps standing, take him down or sit down yourself. I think people need to stop worrying and bitching about what other guy does and just grapple from any position match takes you to. Eddie did what he wanted to do, what's wrong with that? Neither one of them tried to stall, IMO. One guy tried to engage from BTFLY guard, another tried to pass.

Originally Posted by Serge Bunimovich

One guy tried to engage from BTFLY guard, another tried to pass.

Seems like a valid strategy to me. Eddie is a known leg-lock guy, right? So his strategy was obviously "you can come sit down with me and we'll play footsey. Or you can keep your legs back and try to get around my butterfly. Your choice"

In a real fight you kick the guy in the face at that point. In MMA you step back and make the ref stand him up. In this ruleset, you gotta choose one of those first 2 options, play footsey or keep your legs back and try to pass.

Seems valid to me.

I guess there was a 3rd option... step back and taunt the guy. "Cmon pussy, stand the fuck up and fight me like a man". "You trying to have a fuckin tea-party or something, stand up!"

In this case Denny tried to pass. Valid approach. But he ended up getting caught in that body triangle and had to fight Eddie off. He managed to get out which was awesome! He fought like hell and got out.

Then he made I think his 1 big mistake. Instead of rest, relax, regroup, he went right back into the fire. Eddie switched to attacking the legs, and BAM, game over.

I really feel like if Denny had just stepped back at that point. Slow the breathing, relax, regroup. Take as much time as you want at that point. That would have made Eddie's strategy weak, because it relied on Denny doing something. If Eddie continues to sit on his butt, Denny can fully rest back up and all the advantage Eddie had from all that work is lost.

If Eddie was smart, at that point when he seens Denny just standing back and breathing, he probably stands up and engages, right?

Cause if Eddie backs up and starts resting, Denny can either let him rest, or stand up, right? The onus is now on Eddie to press the action since he has a cardio advantage at that point.

Originally Posted by Serge Bunimovich

I see nothing wrong with Eddie sitting down and not willing to wrestle. Who cares about what your opponent does? He sits down, go pass his guard. He keeps standing, take him down or sit down yourself. I think people need to stop worrying and bitching about what other guy does and just grapple from any position match takes you to. Eddie did what he wanted to do, what's wrong with that? Neither one of them tried to stall, IMO. One guy tried to engage from BTFLY guard, another tried to pass.

All combat sports have a "lack of combativeness" penalty. Now, this thread has changed from my initial inquiry as to the sitting down thing. However, I do believe that if a fighter sits down, the other fighter SHOULD NOT BE COMPELLED to engage him. If I were fighting Cummings (well, I'd be destroyed in two seconds) I would simply stand there and not move knowing his leg game. I would want to take him down on my terms, hopefully ending in side control or another dominant position. I would be pissed if there were no rule that would ask the sitting fighter to "fight."

Originally Posted by Aiseop

All combat sports have a "lack of combativeness" penalty. Now, this thread has changed from my initial inquiry as to the sitting down thing. However, I do believe that if a fighter sits down, the other fighter SHOULD NOT BE COMPELLED to engage him. If I were fighting Cummings (well, I'd be destroyed in two seconds) I would simply stand there and not move knowing his leg game. I would want to take him down on my terms, hopefully ending in side control or another dominant position. I would be pissed if there were no rule that would ask the sitting fighter to "fight."

and in that case you would be the one stalling, right? He sits down and you just standing there not willing to pass. Don't you think you should get penalized in this case for not engaging?

Originally Posted by Serge Bunimovich

and in that case you would be the one stalling, right? He sits down and you just standing there not willing to pass. Don't you think you should get penalized in this case for not engaging?

Bingo.

Cummings wasn't stalling; he strategically chose which battlefield the engagement should take place on. It was a wise choice.

Penalizing Cummings for sitting would be utterly stupid in a sub only tourney, as utterly stupid as penalizing Denny for standing up repeatedly to avoid Cummings attacks.

I'm trying to win. Period. And if I have an advantage by sitting on my butt and counter fighting, then by God that's exactly what I'm gonna do. If you have an advantage in the standup department, I'm looking to take that away from you. Get better at passing guard and avoiding sweeps and leg entanglements if you don't like it. I'm not interested in being exciting; I'm interested in taking a limb back to my house to throw on the grill and feed to my children.

Not true at all, IMO. Let's say Denny sits down about two body lengths away from Cummings. Now you have two combatants expressing lack of combativeness. How does a ref "reset" the match to get them to fight? He stands them up. Does a ref in this situation say "butt scoot to each other?" Of course not. I'm not saying Cummings didn't have a great strategy. He did. I just think the onus should not fall on the standing fighter to engage the sitting fighter. If Denny decided to just stand there and wait for Cummings to approach, I hope the ref would have compelled Cummings and not Denny to engage. Many tournaments, including Good Fight and US Grappling, two sub-only, prevent sitting without pulling guard for the very reasons stated above that deal with being as true to combativeness as possible.

In fact, I would add that critics of the sub-only movement are right that the takedown/throw aspect needs some fixing. The IBJJF points has that advantage that a takedown/throw matters in combat. Sub-only removes this. Whether you agree or not, ok, but you can't express to me that most people think sitting in a fight is a good idea.