Mendes Bros no-gi sub only superfights from Chechnya this past weekend

[Apperz]

I get where you're coming from. I don't mean they were stalling in the sense of stalling for the clock to run out. I mean they were stalling having to actually go for a takedown. Neither one has ever had to focus on takedowns to the extent they would if sitting were disallowed throughout their careers, so they were just stalling and hoping for the other person to commit to a takedown attempt instead.

I don't think we would have seen this if they had gone their whole careers taking a penalty point or two every time they sat down. I think they would have gotten good at being aggressive on the feet just like wrestlers. The guys in the gold medal match in the Olympics are also contending with nearly impossible opponents, but they generally manage to be aggressive. It's just that the rules they came up under fostered that whereas the "sit if you like" rules that Rafa and Cobrinha came up under do not (at all).

According to BJJ Heroes they've had over 150 matches between them and only lost by submission twice (both of those were Cobrinha being tapped, Mendes hasn't lose by sub at blackbelt yet), so that means you are playing for points - unless you want to play the 2% odds you can pull out a submission.

You let Rafa pull you into guard and he is plotting the backtake before he hits the floor. You let him get on top and he is giving you 10 minutes of directional changes that a single slip up will see you lose the match (coming back from behind on Rafa is going to be super tough).

If Cobrinha gets underneath you he is a master at sweeping - I imagine Rafa knew that his only real shot at losing was if he got swept (he has had his guard passed before - possibly even by Cobrinha, if I remember rightly - but it's a rarity).

The result is that you get a match where both are trying to win by a narrow margin: a sweep or a takedown. The other knows this and therefore doesn't want to risk being put in a position where they will be swept or takedown. As such they were keeping themselves safe whilst waiting for the other person to make a mistake. Can't remember who said it (possibly Ryan Hall), but good fighters hardly make any mistakes, the best make none. If you are waiting for a mistake and none comes... nothing happens.

That said, I am with you in some ways. I wish we didn't have to have matches like this - but I don't fault the competitors. They ARE doing everything they can to win. You can bet in Rafa's head he is screaming at himself to take this guy down or to pull him into guard, but the part of us - the master fighter part of his brain that so few of us have or listen to - is telling him he shouldn't and that is why he is where he is: he didn't feel it so he didn't do it. He didn't make the mistake we'd have made. Cobrinha I am sure was thinking the exact same thing.

Anyone who saw the match know it was a draw. None of them lost. None of them won either, but then perhaps that was because on that day no one could have done anything to win, just done something to make themselves lose.

*shrugs*

[Liquidrob]

Rafa has never been subbed at black belt

Actually, he has only had his guard passed once which was over 5 or 6 years ago, think about that, lol

[Liquidrob]

When there was no guard pulling penalty, Rafa and Cobrinha had probably the best No Gi match ever, 2007 I believe

[Apperz]

P.S. I know I went off on a tangent away from your argument about wrestling being super exciting. But personally I don't really like wrestling. I'd be more than happy to see Jiu Jitsu matches start with both players facing each other in butterfly position (Marcelo-esque) and then they can choose to stand up or not. I know some people love takedowns and they are a 'natural' part of the sport (if you consider most fights start standing), but it isn't what I love about Jiu Jitsu. I love the ground.

[Apperz]

Rafa has never been subbed at black belt

Actually, he has only had his guard passed once which was over 5 or 6 years ago, think about that, lol

I think I said that?

[Liquidrob]

Your first sentence sounds like Rafa was subbed twice, by Cobrinha

[Mike Nall]

Jack Hanley, you got a lot of good posts, so I didn't want to just quote one, but I have a few thoughts on the guard pulling talk in here, which I think is a good discussion.

- Regarding the matches in Chechnya, they were paid a lot of money to go there and put on a show. I also think Quexinho was not engaging that much for the early part of the match, and Rafa's guard is more of a counter-puncher type of guard. So he'll wait for someone to step in and then he'll sweep. Gui Mendes obviously plays very little guard, his strength is clearly the top, and Rafa Mendes played more guard than Gui does, but he seems to be playing less now.

- I think Rafa's bigger strength is also playing the top, as evidence by what he does once he gets there, and also by his recent passing performances at the match the day before these 2 in Chechnya and also at the Rickson Cup, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMy7lKUo8aU which Eddie said would go down as "one of the greatest massacres of all time"). Rafa's an excellent passer, and I do think he'd be even better with more takedowns in the mix. Gui has a really heavy smash pass style, and Rafa has a really speedy AND1 side to side footwork style of passing. Sometimes I'm surprised that Rafa doesn't bring in more wrestlers, considering that he has a lot of money and resources compared to most other competitors.

- Rafa has improved his wrestling. It may not sound like much at the last ADCC, but he didn't pull guard once, and he got takedowns in several of his matches leading up to the finals. It may not have been against D1 wrestlers, but this was the first time in his career that I can remember seeing him wrestle on the feet. He's also been wrestling more for takedowns in sparring at his academy if the online training vids from there are any indication. I think that's a big step.

- I actually think Cobrinha is one of the better wrestlers in jiu-jitsu. he and Marcelo both have pretty good wrestling, and seated wrestling. Much of Cobrinha's guard game is even based around coming up onto single legs and taking people down from the feet. He has really awesome single legs and snap downs. In his match with Rafa at ADCC 2013, I thought he showcased pretty good wrestling. Both guys were exhausted after 2 tough days in China, Cobrinha is a decade older than Rafa, the mats were slippery, falling apart (literally), and Rafa is pretty good at not getting taken down. Another consideration is that at ADCC, you do not get takedown points if you take someone down without landing and controlling them completely flat on their back. For example, the following takedown put Cobrinha in danger of a leg entanglement situation and did not earn him any points, although in any other tournament this would have been 2 points: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvs56RRRLiM#t=37m4s So I think Cobrinha was being careful in the takedowns he attempted.

- None of that takes away from the fact that the ADCC 2013 match was boring. No way around it. Their 2009 ADCC match was a 40 minute double OT classic. Their 2011 match was less exciting, and their 2013 was less exciting even more. I also don't disagree that a -1 for any guard pull in a match would've made both of them better on the feet. I'm not sure how I feel about a -1 for pulling across the board, but it's an interesting idea. I know they asked Rafa after his Cobrinha loss if he thought more wrestling would have helped him but he actually said no, which I thought was strange. I clearly thought he lost the decision because he got out-wrestled pretty strongly on the feet.

- I also agree with you that submissions off of takedown attempts alter takedown strategies, but I think it sorts itself out. To keep it on Rafa/Cobrinha, in their awesome ADCC 09 finals, Cobrinha shot a couple arm drags to singles, and every time Rafa locked on deep anaconda or darce chokes, one of which Cobrinha said basically put him to sleep as he escaped. Cobrinha started changing his takedown strategies as the match went on, and it didn't stop being exciting, and it didn't stop the majority of the match from playing out on the floor. Your point about this is really good I think.

[Liquidrob]

Great post Mike Nall as usual

I just posted the other day on the UG how people thinking the Mendes brothers are just "butt floppers", they have really good takedows and Rafa trains with the SD Atos guys like Galvao,,Torres, Keenan, etc...and in the ADCC training vids they start from standing alot and battle takedowns

Cobrinha has a really good wrestling game

[Liquidrob]

And like you said, Rafa has been killing it with the top game lately, he has become more passer heavy lately and destroying guards

[Mike Nall]

According to BJJ Heroes they've had over 150 matches between them and only lost by submission twice (both Cobrinha), so that means you are playing for points - unless you want to play the 2% odds you can pull out a submission.

You let Rafa pull you into guard and he is plotting the backtake before he hits the floor. You let him get on top and he is giving you 10 minutes of directional changes that a single slip up will see you lose the match (coming back from behind on Rafa is going to be super tough).

If Cobrinha gets underneath you he is a master at sweeping - I imagine Rafa knew that his only real shot at losing was if he got swept (he has had his guard passed before - possibly even by Cobrinha, if I remember rightly - but it's a rarity).

The result is that you get a match where both are trying to win by a narrow margin: a sweep or a takedown. The other knows this and therefore doesn't want to risk being put in a position where they will be swept or takedown. As such they were keeping themselves safe whilst waiting for the other person to make a mistake. Can't remember who said it (possibly Ryan Hall), but good fighters hardly make any mistakes, the best make none. If you are waiting for a mistake and none comes... nothing happens.

That said, I am with you in some ways. I wish we didn't have to have matches like this - but I don't fault the competitors. They ARE doing everything they can to win. You can bet in Rafa's head he is screaming at himself to take this guy down or to pull him into guard, but the part of us - the master fighter part of his brain that so few of us have or listen to - is telling him he shouldn't and that is why he is where he is: he didn't feel it so he didn't do it. He didn't make the mistake we'd have made. Cobrinha I am sure was thinking the exact same thing.

Anyone who saw the match know it was a draw. None of them lost. None of them won either, but then perhaps that was because on that day no one could have done anything to win, just done something to make themselves lose.

*shrugs*

Do you mean Rafa has been subbed by Cobrinha twice? or that Cobrinha has been subbed twice? I know since brown belt he's only been tapped twice, only once at his weight, and it was an armbar from Rafa in the gi a few years ago. I agree with every word of your post except the last part. I think if you didn't look at any points in their ADCC 2013 match, and you just watched what happened, I think Rafa got out grappled in this match. I thought Cobrinha got 1 or 2 significant takedowns that didn't score, but clearly showed that the balance tipped in his favor. Even die hard Rafa fans in the chat during the match were saying that it would be shame if Cobrinha didn't get the nod. He worked hard for that win and he earned it.

Rafa is the best in the world, Gi or No Gi, unbelievable

Fun to see Gui in a No gi match, the only other match I remember seeing him in on video was his match with Rafa in an old AD pro event

You're right he hasn't competed no-gi since that 2011 comp and I wish we could see him do it more because I like his style a lot. His top game reminds me of mine, but obviously he's way better at it. It's different from Rafa's but rally cool. From what I hear he's like the opposite of Jeff Glover, who doesn't really like competing in the gi, but still trains it. Gui doesn't really like competing in no-gi.

Rafa has never been subbed at black belt

Actually, he has only had his guard passed once which was over 5 or 6 years ago, think about that, lol

Yeah man. The last time his guard was passed was when he was 18 or 19 in 2008 in his first match with Cobrinha. he was playing deep half, and was sworn it off since. He's never even been close to getting passed since then. Keenan Cornelius and Michael Langhi said that even with the Atos ADCC 2013 camp having Rafa, Andre Galvao, JT Torres, and Keenan Cornelius in it, with Dean Lister helping some too, that Rafa was never tapped once in the entire 2-3 month camp for the event. That's crazy.