Blackbelts getting tapped

[Craig Murray]

there are many many ways to correct and teach technique without giving away free subs, positional sparring, situational training,,starting from the sub position, etc...

So these don't count as taps? Well then perhaps I misunderstood what people mean when they say tap.

So the following sentence is incorrect?

"I was training with Professor Herzog and we were doing positional sparring. I started in spider-web over and over for a couple hours. Once, I caught him in the bicep-slicer and he tapped."

Is that not a valid use of the word tap? Perhaps I'm confused what people mean. If so, please disregard everything I've said in this thread.

[Liquidrob]

Its just training, tapping someone from situational training, or starting in full spider web is just training

Tapping someone in free sparring is when it "counts" as a tap, but in the end its just a tap in training

[Chris Herzog]

Let's do a thought experiment to see if this pans out.

Let's say you have a whitebelt that comes to you. He's 150lb, 5'9", no athletic ability. And he is going to train exclusively with you. Maybe he's really rich and famous, maybe the population of the Earth has been reduced, maybe it's a new school and he's your first student, does'nt matter. Create any hypothetical you want to, this white belt is going to train exclusively with you.

So you start teaching him the basics, including basic submissions. And then you roll with him. Of course he's a whitebelt, so he's not very good at anything you teach him.

Now I'm guessing that, based on your response, you never tap to white belts or blue belts. Probably not often to purple belts either. So when do your students actually start to "earn that shit" and actually tap you? Brown belt?

So do you really expect to be able to train a white belt up to brown belt over years without them actually tapping you a single time? And you believe this is the best way to help them develop their technique?

That seems a little ridiculous to me, that they would go years without ever actually tapping someone. That they could actually achive a brownbelt without ever tapping someone. Remember, they only train with you.

My feeling is that would be a VERY slow way for a whitebelt to advance.

He may never tap me, and many of my students will never tap me. That doesn't take away from my ability to teach them and help them grow in the slightest. I have a number of students I roll with every week that have been with me over 8 years that have never come close to tapping me. My browns get close but its still rare. So yes, not only do I expect that to happen , I know it to happen. Your assumptions based on very very limited experience is invalid.

BTW my blues and purples have have tapped browns and blacks in competition or when they drop in to roll. Quality is not an issue.

[Chris Herzog]

So these don't count as taps? Well then perhaps I misunderstood what people mean when they say tap.

So the following sentence is incorrect?

"I was training with Professor Herzog and we were doing positional sparring. I started in spider-web over and over for a couple hours. Once, I caught him in the bicep-slicer and he tapped."

Is that not a valid use of the word tap? Perhaps I'm confused what people mean. If so, please disregard everything I've said in this thread.

Nope, because it wouldn't happen.

[Chris Herzog]

The idea of letting someone tap me to make them better is silly. I don't train my students to be able to crack a white belt level defense, I train them to crack black belt level defense.


Also whats really ridiculous is the absurd idea that because someone doesn't get tapped out that often they must be holding back information from his/her students.


#WhiteBeltTheories

[Scott Chapman]

Why does anyone care about a "tap" of a higher belt in class? If you feel you can tap browns or blacks then simply sign up in expert at every tournament and do it....I would never consider a valid tap unless we verbally agreed we are going full speed before rolling.....just sayin.....this sport should teach humility not arrogance....

[Arman Fathi]

A red belt is at least 67 years old. His joints are probably in a used state after 58 years of training. His fitness isn't as good either because in theory his heartrate doesn't get over 153. A younger, heavier, faster and fitter blue belt could wear down an old guy and tap him out before the end of the round.

We have a black belt that's 63 years old and lemme tell you, NOBODY catches this guy. I don't doubt that the physical discrepancies can win some 50/50s or pull off a sweep, but that'd almost be as far as it goes. If a younger, fitter, more athletic blue or purple went toe-to-toe with this guy, they'll lose 10 outta 10 times. Guaranteed. I've witnessed it and felt it. Granted, you could make the argument that physicality can stack the deck, but then I'd say that it completely defeats the purpose of sparring with this guy or even practicing jiu jitsu at all if that's the attitude someone brings to the mats. I learn way more trying to go toe-to-toe with technique and getting smashed than using whatever advantage my relative youth grants me. I rolled against Kurt Osiander not too long ago and even tho he's literally twice my age, he ended up smashing me cuz of superior technique. Now, don't get me wrong, I felt at numerous times throughout the roll that I could throw in a youthful blast of explosion and possibly make something happen, but even then with his skill level, there wouldn't be any guarantees. I think it's on the student just as much as the professor to take the maximal value from a training session, and anything non-technique related could sadly distort the perception of how good someone is truly getting, in my eyes.

[Scott Philips]

In the hypothetical scenario of someone training exclusively in 1 on 1 scenario with their instructor, it would be incredibly hard to progress to the point of being able to tap them. That person in in complete control of your knowledge base and knows your setups before they come. Not to mention you get absolutely no offensive reps to tweak it to your own style. These celebrity type training situations are cool for basic jiu jitsu knowledge but they are missing out on a incredibly irreplaceable aspect of training. The daily grind and adaptation you have with training partners cannot be simulated in a 1 on 1 pussified environment.

I don't even really understand what point you are trying to make Craig. No, you won't tap Lovato.

However, if you get a very athletic guy, size can help as well, that really gets into training for a good period of time, and you train with regularly, everyone gets caught. It's a part of the game, if you train with someone regularly, you will get caught. Having said that, I have really good training partners who have never tapped me and people who should have never tapped me who have because I didn't take them seriously and got too deep. It's all just part of the game. Many variables that occur on a daily basis. Being sick and on antibiotics. Taking a period of time off for injuries and coming back with people having drilled new setups you didn't get the opportunity to. They are all looked at in the end as learning experiences. It's just the gym homie, better to get caught there than in a comp.

[Omar Ocasio]

Eddie never hands out taps.....he beats my ass pretty much everytime......but i try.......i really try!

[Kurzy]

Let's do a thought experiment to see if this pans out.

Let's say you have a whitebelt that comes to you. He's 150lb, 5'9", no athletic ability. And he is going to train exclusively with you. Maybe he's really rich and famous, maybe the population of the Earth has been reduced, maybe it's a new school and he's your first student, does'nt matter. Create any hypothetical you want to, this white belt is going to train exclusively with you.

So you start teaching him the basics, including basic submissions. And then you roll with him. Of course he's a whitebelt, so he's not very good at anything you teach him.

Now I'm guessing that, based on your response, you never tap to white belts or blue belts. Probably not often to purple belts either. So when do your students actually start to "earn that shit" and actually tap you? Brown belt?

So do you really expect to be able to train a white belt up to brown belt over years without them actually tapping you a single time? And you believe this is the best way to help them develop their technique?

That seems a little ridiculous to me, that they would go years without ever actually tapping someone. That they could actually achive a brownbelt without ever tapping someone. Remember, they only train with you.

My feeling is that would be a VERY slow way for a whitebelt to advance.

No offense dude, but what you're describing sounds a lot like that Gracie "learn at home from Video" academy. The point of going to a class is to have training partners to roll with. Zog never has to hand out a pity tap once, but the students progress and experience learning (and applying) subs via rolling with their team mates.

What you're talking about is a BJJ career in private lessons only, and even in that case, I doubt any instructor is just going to hand out mercy taps unless it is obvious repping like what Zog talked about.