Ryan Hall, Heel Hooks, TUF 22

[Eddie Bravo]

The general consensus in the MMA world has always been that leg locks are risky and dangerous, even Hayastan agrees with this. Paulhares is making people rethink that tho, and guys like Held and Hall might be the guys who finally get the whole MMA community to change their minds. Meanwhile we'll continue to stay heavy with leg locks. At the very least, a highly polished leg lock game is an awesome last resort weapon in MMa, when all the classic Jiu Jitsu isn't quite working

[Craig Murray]

The heel hook has been in NHB/MMA since the beginning,

http://www.mma121.com/top-10-submiss...fc-mma-events/

Shows Heel Hook in MMA as 1.6% of submissions (not wins, ie not talking about KOs or TKOs or decisions, just submissions). So 16 heel hook submissions in every 1000 MMA fights that end in submission.

So technically I guess you're right, heel hooks ARE a part of MMA (I never said they were not). But they are obviously a very small part. I think that is going to change and that you are going to see the 1.6% rise. But maybe I don't know what I'm talking about...

[Craig Murray]

The general consensus in the MMA world has always been that leg locks are risky and dangerous, even Hayastan agrees with this. Paulhares is making people rethink that tho, and guys like Held and Hall might be the guys who finally get the whole MMA community to change their minds. Meanwhile we'll continue to stay heavy with leg locks. At the very least, a highly polished leg lock game is an awesome last resort weapon in MMa, when all the classic Jiu Jitsu isn't quite working

Thank you for saying this better than I was apparently able to. "risky and dangerous" is the consensus, and I think that's wrong (assuming a well developed leg game). I also agree that guys like Hall "might be the guys who finally get the community to change their minds". This is exactly what I was trying to say.

[Liquidrob]

I'm really confused by this post. Can you explain more?

What Mike said

[Craig Murray]

What Mike said

Well it wasn't my intention to author a controversial post, nor a confusing one.

Rob I don't know what else to tell you. I would think a careful examination of the 10p itself would exemplify my point. Heel Hooks didn't even really exist in the system until what, a year ago? Suddenly they are one of the centerpieces? Times are a changin...

10p is amazing because the philosophy of the system requires it to evaluate what others are doing and adopt and adapt. That's why I posted this here... I figured 10p people would understand the point I was trying to make better than anyone.

I had suspected most of the response to my post would be similar to Nathan Wallner's reply ("We're all witnessing history. #Powerful"). I did not foresee such confusion or argument from the community. Sorry if I upset or offended anyone. I've been trying hard not to do that here.

[David Rosado]

Guys have been heel hooking in NHB/MMA for years

Go watch the old UFCs, old Pancrase, Rings, etc...

Strange thread is strange

Guys have been heel hooking for decades, but not really at the level that guys like Palhares, Hall, and Held are executing at.

Ken Shamrock just fell straight to his back with hardly and hip control or even leg control. Even my white belt ass would've mounted him with ease for pulling off that BS. For years leg locks have been discarded by most fighters. Easy to escape and defend or punch your way out of. But the leg lock game is evolving. I think that's the point guys are making.

[Liquidrob]

Ken would have whooped your ass

[Mike Nall]

I don't think you know what you're talking about

The heel hook has been in NHB/MMA since the beginning, it has been in the "modern era" also, like I said, strange thread is strange

Carry on

Yeah man that's why I posted earlier that this thread was confusing to me. I think the internet is able to expose so many thing sto so many more people, and people like Cummings and Tonon have so much attention on them that people are seeing a lot of heel hooks and are thinking it's a new thing.

Heel hooks have been a top 3 sub at ADCC for years and years. I learned it in 2001, before I even did Jiu-Jitsu. Bas Rutten was teaching it at seminars and that's where I saw it.

Ryan Hall is not heel hooking people because they aren't familiar with them. He's doing it because he's much better at doing them than most people on the planet. It's not even his a-game.

[Mike Nall]

Ken Shamrock just fell straight to his back with hardly and hip control or even leg control. Even my white belt ass would've mounted him with ease for pulling off that BS. For years leg locks have been discarded by most fighters. Easy to escape and defend or punch your way out of. But the leg lock game is evolving. I think that's the point guys are making.

Stop it. No you wouldn't have.

[Liquidrob]

Pancrase and Rings made some solid heel hookers, just because Ken fell back against Royce doesn't mean he didn't have game, watch his other fights, his inside/reverse heel hook was nasty and has broken many dudes limbs off

Frank evolved his leg game from the early Pancrase days, what's the dudes name, the russian guy, called him the shoe maker or something, he went through Rings and subbed Randy

Funaki, Suzuki, Tamura, amd later Saku, etc...all had game, Pancrase pretty much laid the ground work for the modern 50/50, they were reaping machines also