Garry Tonon: IBJJF Rules make you sharper in a different way

[Joe Mayall]

http://www.flograppling.com/article/...different-ways

thoughts?

[Eric Schuettenberg]

I kind of agree. Different tournaments with different rules make you focus on different parts of your game.

[Sam Davis]

For sure. Humans adapt to whatever environment they are in.

[Nick Paul]

I agree to an extent. My last few tournaments I've been focusing on the points system and it really forces you to put emphasis on controlling position compared to attacking submission after submission, so my top game and ability to slow things down has really gotten better. With that said I don't think you can have a truly complete game if winning on points in a 5-8 minute match is your chief concern. I think jiu jitsu is built around the idea of the submission, and sub only definitely promotes that philosophy

[Andrew Alexander]

Agree

[Craig Murray]

I kind of think people feel that way because that's how it is, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Would Garry prefer to be able to use heelhooks in those IBJJF tournaments, rather than "improve other parts of his game"? I bet he would.

If I started a competition where the rule was No Chokes, at all, of any kind. People would say that's the stupidest thing they've ever heard. I'll bet no one at all would say "Hey great idea, that gives us an opportunity to work on other parts of our game!"

I think that opinion, about it being good for your game, is just people trying to stay positive about a stupid antiquated rule-set.

[Eddie Bravo]

If you focus on the subonly game, your subs will be stronger, if you focus on point Jitz your sweeping and passing will be stronger. Both are important but subonly is generally way more entertaining

[Craig Murray]

If you focus on the subonly game, your subs will be stronger, if you focus on point Jitz your sweeping and passing will be stronger. Both are important but subonly is generally way more entertaining

So if your goal is to submit your opponent, how important are sweeps and passing? It kind of begs that question, no?

[Nick Paul]

So if your goal is to submit your opponent, how important are sweeps and passing? It kind of begs that question, no?

In my experience the really good point guys are great at finishing from mount, back, side control, places where points are awarded. Where as sub only guys look for the finish from the guard, leg lock positions, crucifix, the truck (obviously 10P specific), anywhere submissions are possible but not recognized as "dominant position". Another example, in a points tourny when you see a guy attacking the turtle, getting your back points is the ultimate goal. But in sub only you'll see guys attack guillotines and anacondas and what not. Obviously passing is still crucial because you're not submitting guys from their guards.

[Mike Nall]

This gets confused all the time and I guess I can understand why. People confuse the stupid bullshit ibjjf rules and advantages and annoying points with this idea that dominant positions = stalling. Most competitors that are good at getting to ashi garami, the mount, the back, knee on belly, side control, north south, the crucifix, the front headlock, whatever the case may be, they often finish from those places. People don't go to the mount to or the back to stall out. They go there to finish. Maybe they don't get the finish, but people go to the 5050 to stall, or they may go to spider guard, or some other spots where it's easier to game the system for advantages and things like that. They sure as fuck don't take someone's back and then not try to finish.

Leandro Lo is really the only elite competitor I can think of that isn't known for finishing people. He'll get 40 points on someone and go for finishes but he just isn't great at sealing the deal. If tech falls were a thing in jiu jitsu then he would be the king of them.

The point system wasn't created for stalling. It happens that people use it for that sometimes, but the positions that give you points are great to finish from. Like the mount, back, knee on belly, and even many positions that you don't get points for, like the honey hole, ashi garami, and the crucifix.

Lastly, position over submission doesn't mean "a position that scores points". It just means your positioning for the sub you want needs to be good. It doesn't matter if you have closed guard, or spider web, or the truck, or a vice grip, or the over-unders with an anaconda body triangle. People like Sakuraba, Garry Tonon, Keenan Cornelius, and Nate Orchard show regularly that even a kimura grip is position before submission. People take the position before submission thing way too literally.