Kids and heel hooks

[Aaron Gustaveson]

No, I began my comment with "Im guessing".

There is no contradiction in saying HH may have been banned out of convention, and saying "Eddie has never been one to concede what he thinks makes sense, to please people."

You're either stupid or purposely being obtuse. Do you need it explained to you?

[NameLikeNoOther]

1. this has nothing to do with what's acceptable to me, you haven't been paying attention to what I've said. See what you're doing there? You know damn well I'm talking about the larger public, potential viewers of SpikeTV, yet you try to make it about me. Such a sneaky guy you are.

I think that assuming major TV Network Executives care about the well being of children is a little naive. They care about how much advertising revenue they can generate. There are many sports that major networks broadcast where children have been seriously injured (gymnastics, half-pipe snowboard/skiing, motocross, skateboarding, etc.). In fact I would argue that the potential risk of injury creates the type of tension that increases viewership. Perhaps the referees can be empowered to end children's matches prior to taps if risk of injury is high. The reality in this sport is that the risk of joint injuries is as likely as smashing off rocks when you are leading on a rock climb, everyone who participates knows the risks and makes calculated decisions along the way that they are responsible for the outcome.

[Craig Murray]

Perhaps the referees can be empowered to end children's matches prior to taps if risk of injury is high.

Yeah this has been suggested in this thread. It's probably a good solution since so many people are obviously very passionate about they being included.

I'm going to stand by my original statement though, that I would like to see them removed from kids matches. I don't see any advantage to having them in, and only risk.

I will say I'm sad that I have, once again, received the ire of many in the forum for my defense of an unpopular idea.

[Howard Lynch]

Very sad to hear this. I am not qualified to speak to you guys on grappling but I can say as the parent of a 11 year old competitive baseball pitcher that this is not surprising. Whenever you have high level athletes paired with high pressure competition the chance of injury increases. It's the same for kids as adults. We as parents have to make sure that we prepare them for the possible consequences of things not going there way. As far as the injury, all injuries are bad when kids are involved. So far this year on my son's baseball team there have been two pitchers that have seperated their growth plate from their shoulder and another with a torn ucl. No matter what sport, high level athletes will get high level injuries. Just my 2 cent. I wish her well.

[Cora Sek]

Why were heelhooks illegal in previous kids fights?[/QUOTE]

I might not be qualified to talk about heel hooks, but I can answer this question. As the father of the original 4 "girls", WE chose to op out of the heel hook and toeholds. Yes, we get to chose. So ALL of us chose to not allow those....nothing twisting...no heel hooks, toe holds, twisters, neck crank. These girls are much older than my 12 year old daughter and they are 16 years old blue belt. Riley has over 9 years of training, Sophie has over 6 years. You would think that is reasonable that they chose to play with a wider range of submissions. I think the major problem here is EGO. Sophie knew she is very tiny compare to Riley and yet she still took this match. I personally would never allow Cora to take on anyone who is 15 lbs more than her in this format. If these are the best kids around, that size advantage is HUGE. There was no way that Sophie could have done to escape that Since there was such a huge strength difference. Sophie should have tapped. IMO she shouldn't have accepted this match in the first place. Someone should have stepped up and advised her, someone like her parents and coaches. But I guess that EGO got the best of her or her wanting to be on that stage really bad.

[Brandon Mccaghren]

I've seen more people injured from kimuras and armbars than I have from heel hooks. The injuries occurring from leg locks stem from lack of knowledge on both sides and in some cases a lack of respect. The joint layout for the the leg is the same as the arm. Ball joint, hinge joint, ball joint, from top to bottom. There's no pressures that can be put on the leg joints that can't be put on the corresponding joints in the arm. The main three things that separate them are shape, size, and placement. So maintaining ignorance of leglocks is quite literally the equivalent of ignoring armlocks. So even if we were to abolish leg locks in kids matches, they still need to be educated on them, just as they would be with an armbar and such. Tonon's post was on point.

Knowledge bomb

[sean applegate]

I've seen more people injured from kimuras and armbars than I have from heel hooks. The injuries occurring from leg locks stem from lack of knowledge on both sides and in some cases a lack of respect. The joint layout for the the leg is the same as the arm. Ball joint, hinge joint, ball joint, from top to bottom. There's no pressures that can be put on the leg joints that can't be put on the corresponding joints in the arm. The main three things that separate them are shape, size, and placement. So maintaining ignorance of leglocks is quite literally the equivalent of ignoring armlocks. So even if we were to abolish leg locks in kids matches, they still need to be educated on them, just as they would be with an armbar and such. Tonon's post was on point.

This is from a blue belt. Probably one of the best things ive seen posted so far. This is the result of taking a healthy and knowledgeable approach to leg attacks.

[Josh Yelverton]

For the record, I don't see any names designated in Sean's posts. If you feel insulted then you designated yourself, probably because you subconsciously feel that his comment applies to you. But let's be done with petty arguments. If you know how to apply a heel hook correctly, then you know that the ankle breaks as well as the knee. You feel pain well before your knee is injured. Riley didn't even have correct hip orientation for the heel hook. She didn't hip in at all. In all honesty she probably did more damage to the knee by standing up with Sophie's foot still on her hip than she did in her 'heel hook'. Riley attacked the ankle more than anything in her actual application of the submission.

[Tori Applegate]

Pretty sure I got brain cancer reading this. My training partner is 16 years old, like these "little girls" are. She fights in the women's division all the time, including the absolute, and understands how devasting leglocks are and the mechanics of how heelhooks work. She has way less time doing BJJ than these "kids". If they agreed to it, its sub only, have at it. Their parents understood, so did they, the ref, and Eddie.

Eddie is an innovator of this sport. He put this on, made this possible, and has pushed the growth of the sport in sub only more than anyone I can think of. It took alot of effort to get EBI up and going I'm sure. Eddie has made changes where he felt necessary. I doubt he's going to take critique from babies in the sport when he's been in this for so long.

Also, Craig these girls have been training way longer than you. They are two years from being legal adults for gods sake.

It's time for everyone to educate themselves on the mechanics of heelhooks. Like Garry Tonon said, hit up some seminars and get educated. Learn as much as you can. It's not just a new trend in BJJ, its the evolution of BJJ at work. Why set the sport back by banning more subs. Forget that, that's enabling stupidity and ego. It allows people to ignore this major growth that's happening in our community. EBI is the ultimate tournament. I can somewhat agree about maybe having a ref step in before it gets too far, but for 16 year olds....I mean come on.

[Jem Havok]

Heel hooks are not a crime, man!
I agree with all you guys who say get educated on Heel Hooks.
Learn to respect them, learn to defend them and learn to apply them.
Like Tori said understand the mechanics of Heel Hooks.
Jesus, in Australia you can drive a car at 16 and Drink Alcohol at 18... Crickey, let em do some bloody heel hooks.