The Leg Lock Debate (Video)

[10th Planet Riverside, Ca]

I trained in Judo for years where no leg locks are ever allowed.
Judo is what messed my knees and ankles up more than anything else.
Never had my legs hurt much with leg locks.
American football has the most leg knee injuries.
No leg locks going on there.

[Angel"EL DIABLO"Diaz]

I'll admit at first I was against leg locks at the beginner levels mainly cause of a fear of someone making me walk funny forever lol. But honestly cause of watching Herzog's videos and even getting to go to his seminar has easily boosted not just mine but everybody's confidence here , position before submission and his great attention to detail is unmatched by most of the the JJ community. Now we love leg locks I mean Russian Cowboy has changed everything its one of my top favorite positions

[Slick Rick]

Damn that's hilarious Herzog! Reminds me of the jiu jitsu cartoon they have floating around.
I've read every post here, and I can't believe I missed this thread entirely but I'd still love to give my two cents.

i feel we should learn leg locks simultaneously. If one doesn't want to learn the submission, s/he should at least learn the escape. I think it's good etiquette to ask, before you roll with someone, which leg submissions they will be doing and which they are comfortable with being put on them. Then, right off the bat, you'll know their experience level, or level they are willing to delve into.

So that you don't practice bad habits, you should set aside rounds that are dedicated to anything but leg locks. That way you can focus on your passing game, and other sub game. Sure, let your opponent put them on you so you don't get rusty on your defense, but really focus on rolling with and without leg locks. You'll begin to see your habits, both good and bad. I've noticed that when I'm trying to pass guard(leg locks allowed), and I miss, I'll just go for a toe hold and end it quickly. It's no fun knowing you can beat a guy that doesn't know them that well. So I'll focus on purely passing, etc...

I'll tell you what though, ADCC trials, I got slapped in the face because I didn't know leg lock defense as well as I should have. Never again, I told myself. Now if I tap to a leg lock, I know that I had a grapplers chance to get out of it.

My leg lock game has allowed me to hang with the Mendes brothers, Jason Manley, Gokor, Manny Gamburyan, Sevak, Roman, and Karen. These are world class leg lockers, and sure I'll tap to their subs, but when I go against nicer guys, it's night and day. So leg locks have improved my overall game, and now I can focus and whatever I want to focus on, be it passing, inverted, etc., because I know I have room to mess up. And, while I'm still learning all the other techs, I want to see when and where leg locks can be dropped on me.

[One final note, sorry for the lengthy post]: Even if you get the leg lock in, don't yank their leg off... practice "Touch and Go". Even if I have the lock secured, and my opponent hastily grabs my leg, I'll try to escape their leg lock knowing that I could have taken their foot home, and I'll even tap... Why? Because I value my foot more than the satisfaction of breaking someone's leg...

[10th Planet Riverside, Ca]

"My leg lock game has allowed me to hang with the Mendes brothers, Jason Manley, Gokor, Manny Gamburyan, Sevak, Roman, and Karen. These are world class leg lockers, and sure I'll tap to their subs, but when I go against nicer guys, it's night and day. So leg locks have improved my overall game, and now I can focus and whatever I want to focus on, be it passing, inverted, etc., because I know I have room to mess up. And, while I'm still learning all the other techs, I want to see when and where leg locks can be dropped on me."

Well said Rick. People need to know about this 10th Planet Gokor connection that we have.

A question for you Rick. Do you see people getting hurt a lot at Gokor's with leg locks?
I never did. Gokor has so much control. He does leglocks and neck cranks all the time
and never seems to hurt people too much.

[Slick Rick]

"My leg lock game has allowed me to hang with the Mendes brothers, Jason Manley, Gokor, Manny Gamburyan, Sevak, Roman, and Karen. These are world class leg lockers, and sure I'll tap to their subs, but when I go against nicer guys, it's night and day. So leg locks have improved my overall game, and now I can focus and whatever I want to focus on, be it passing, inverted, etc., because I know I have room to mess up. And, while I'm still learning all the other techs, I want to see when and where leg locks can be dropped on me."

Well said Rick. People need to know about this 10th Planet Gokor connection that we have.

A question for you Rick. Do you see people getting hurt a lot at Gokor's with leg locks?
I never did. Gokor has so much control. He does leglocks and neck cranks all the time
and never seems to hurt people too much.

I rarely see people get hurt by leg locks. As a matter of fact, I've seen more people get hurt with arm bars. There is a proper way to defend an armbar, and it ain't pulling out of it- it's compressing and stacking.

But back to leg locks... just do your game and never, ever pull and torque to hurt someone. Let go of your ego and tap, or if you are the one dropping the sub, let go if he doesn't tap. Acknowledge mentally, that you've got him, and proceed-> Touch and go.

[J Grooms]

Speaking of Neck Cranks... that's the next big thing you all need to jump on board with!

[10th Planet Riverside, Ca]

Speaking of Neck Cranks... that's the next big thing you all need to jump on board with!

Oh yea Grooms, neck cranks! There scary, nasty and I really like them.
Gokor and Gene LeBell are known for their leg locks but LeBell's favorite
techniques are neck cranks and he can put the hurt on you with them.
I've got one really good neck crank instructionals and it's a lot of the
neck cranks Gene LeBell does. Besides being the greatest in judo Gene
LeBell is one of the greatest Catch Wrestlers of all time. He learned from
the great Catch Wrestler Lew Thez and then beat Lew Thez.

[Slick Rick]

Oh yea Grooms, neck cranks! There scary, nasty and I really like them.
Gokor and Gene LeBell are known for their leg locks but LeBell's favorite
techniques are neck cranks and he can put the hurt on you with them.
I've got one really good neck crank instructionals and it's a lot of the
neck cranks Gene LeBell does. Besides being the greatest in judo Gene
LeBell is one of the greatest Catch Wrestlers of all time. He learned from
the great Catch Wrestler Lew Thez and then beat Lew Thez.

Like

[J Grooms]

Yes I love neck cranks! Lou Thesz was pretty overrated as far as shooters go. He learned some holds in the carnivals, but he was mainly a show wrestler. I'm pretty sure Gene Lebell also learned under Karl Gotch.

[Stewart Landry]

I think they should all be allowed. Its not the technique that usually hurts someone, in my experience its not tapping. Eddie pointed out one time that chokes are one of the best things to use because they are adrenaline proof, you can resist all you want but night night is still night night. On real extreme situations guys like Miguel Torres had his ankle broken in a match vs Richard Nancoo and still won the fight. That is an extreme example of resisting though and a little off my point. I think the rule is generally there to protect people from themselves. There are lots of rotational locks that dont hurt a lot... that just seem to build pressure then BANG. And competitors wont tap because they pussh the limitations in an attempt not to lose. In any advanced level competition though you should know your own limitations and tap if necessary, dont take the locks out. Especially if the rules of the match encourage bad habits (ie crossing your feet below the waste with back mount, the leg lock available there should be allowed at all levels, because to make it illegal encourages bad habits).