Choke Etiquette

[Tom Van]

It always frustrates me when guys will just drive their forearm into my throat from guard or like you said face crank me and it just makes me want to put them to sleep, but you are right make them tap to something that will make them go unconscious not a sub that takes a good amount of pain tolerance to escape.

I disagree with this entirely. In jiu jitsu, when you have mount for example, it is so easy for a guy to just T-Rex to avoid submissions. Since you obviously cannot throw strikes, the only thing that you can do is try to make the person so uncomfortable that he moves and makes himself vulnerable.

If you're getting your jaw crushed by a sick squeeze and you don't like it, go ahead and lift your chin up and let it slide over your neck.

Yes, these things are uncomfortable...that's the point. But, they are well within the rules and etiquette of submission wrestling. You have options: tap, give up a submission (and then tap), or escape.

If you take away the factor of trying to force your opponent into mistakes through discomfort, you're left with even less realistic, less effective training. This ain't ballet.

[SpikeLeeRoth]

Thanks everyone for your input, really interesting to read.

The grey area for me is when someone lowers their chin to defend a choke, at what point is someone lowering, to defend their neck from being squeezed or from you squeezing their neck?

Obviously in a competition, it doesn't matter, but in sparring, should one keep working or take the jaw crank?

[bobby rivers]

Is the first time you want to try to finish or escape a submission in comp? The problem i have is when people go from 0 to a 100. It should be controlled and gradual. Knee on neck, jaw crush chokes, heel hooks, all cranks should be encouraged with control. And team mates should know to tap. If you crush a mans jaw, the fight is over. Imo thats a legit sub. If you dont do it to each other they will. Teammates shouldn't be offended if progression and preparation are the objective.

[AJ Camacho]

That gray area should really be communicated to your training partners. Each person has different goals and different expectations when they roll. Usually the guys who want to cage fight fight dirtier than the "9 to 5ers", so it's usually best to regard every person differently.

One training partner used to grind the ridge of his hand into my nasal septum in order to get me to open up for the rear naked choke. One time he did it, I felt like my nose was bleeding for a week. It's just felt raw and red. I had to ask him to knock it off, and he hasn't done it sense.

Like cross facing. I'm fine with getting cross faced if somebody momentarily uses it to setup an opening or a move. But if a dude just goes ape shit and grinds the cross face till he's gassed, then we'll have a little conversation afterwards about what he is actually trying to achieve. The gist being, we're here to learn and develop, not just to arbitrarily cause pain to each other.

[Mike Nall]

Thanks everyone for your input, really interesting to read.

The grey area for me is when someone lowers their chin to defend a choke, at what point is someone lowering, to defend their neck from being squeezed or from you squeezing their neck?

Obviously in a competition, it doesn't matter, but in sparring, should one keep working or take the jaw crank?

You're asking at what point are they lowering to defend the onset of the choke or are they lowering so you aren't sqeezing their neck but rather their face?

I'll just say this, and some people may say I'm wrong, but lowering your face to stop a RNC or any choke for that matter IS NOT a valid defense. In and of itself, at least. If your only defense against the RNC is to tuck your chin, that's a terrible habit and you're going to end up with a damaged jaw and/or dental work.

Obviously in a competition you can crush their jaw with the RNC and the tap is just fine. But even then, you always should go for the perfect technique. You don't want to win because your opponent made a mistake or you got lucky, you want to win because you did the right technique. Imagine trying to RNC Jeff Monson's face... Unless you're Joao Assis (who got a tap from that) you are not gonna be able to do it.

There are several high % techniques for getting underneath someone's jaw once it's tucked. Learn those and drill them.

You're definitely on the right track.

[Mike Nall]

That gray area should really be communicated to your training partners. Each person has different goals and different expectations when they roll. Usually the guys who want to cage fight fight dirtier than the "9 to 5ers", so it's usually best to regard every person differently.

One training partner used to grind the ridge of his hand into my nasal septum in order to get me to open up for the rear naked choke. One time he did it, I felt like my nose was bleeding for a week. It's just felt raw and red. I had to ask him to knock it off, and he hasn't done it sense.

Like cross facing. I'm fine with getting cross faced if somebody momentarily uses it to setup an opening or a move. But if a dude just goes ape shit and grinds the cross face till he's gassed, then we'll have a little conversation afterwards about what he is actually trying to achieve. The gist being, we're here to learn and develop, not just to arbitrarily cause pain to each other.

How do you feel about Baret Yoshida's RNC? Just curious: because he uses the forearm on the septum a lot...

[AJ Camacho]

How do you feel about Baret Yoshida's RNC? Just curious: because he uses the forearm on the septum a lot...

It's one of those weird moves, like pressure points. If you know that it's a pain move you just suck it up and take it and end up with a jacked up nose for a week. I'll take it for a competition or a fight but in the gym, training every day, it's just pointless.

[Louis Ho]

Einstein crushed the shit out of my jaw.

[Will Thaxton]

Einstein crushed the shit out of my jaw.

Yeah, its in the all stars DVD and I have drilled it with someone who also wanted to drill it on me. I also don't like being in my friends invisible collar but it's the right thing to do and I know he is not playing dirty.

[Brandon Mccaghren]

i think it depends on who you are rolling with.

if my guys have my back and they wanna crush my face, no problem. i shouldn't have given up my back. but just remember... i will be on your back soon.

if i am rolling with some of the smaller guys in class and start doing that stuff, that's pretty tacky, i think.

and if big guys are just using crush and strength against small guys i think that's dumb, too.

i do agree with the idea that it's an option during tournaments so we need to be aware of it. and i also agree with going for it in a tourney if you need to.

the problem is (to me) that it is easy for competitive people to forget that not everyone is in this sport to be the next BJ Penn. some people train because they enjoy the art. or they find peace in it. or their dad is making them come to practice. or they need to lose some weight. or they enjoy the feeling of being part of a team. in my opinion, anything that makes anyone in the gym not want to train is totally inappropriate. if you're new, you don't know. that's different. but an experienced grappler crushing an inexperienced grappler is poor etiquette (experience vs experience, i say go for it).

know your training partners. if they are recreational players, don't crush em.