Starting to take this wrestling vs jiu jitsu personal

Originally Posted by Eddie Bravo

A wrestler who doesn't want to ad submissions to his game is like a boxer with an good jab who doesn't want to ad knockout punches to his game

Good quote.

Originally Posted by bobby rivers

Emir, make no mistake, there is nothing easy about climbing into the cage with the best in the world and coming out victorious. No matter what means were used, ala' Fitch.

Not saying it's easy, but it's just boring. Considering that this is a spectator sport, I don't believe Fitch should ever be on another televised bout. He's THAT boring.

Originally Posted by Daniel Valdez

THIS THREADS BEEN HIJACKED.

It was created to spread an a frustration. I believe that jiu jitsu people are losing to wrestlers not because there wrestling isn't good enough but because there jiu jitsu is not being groomed to beat the wrestler.
This thread was created when fighters were winning primarily by wrestling and great jiu jitsu guys were losing because they were playing an "anti-wrestling" game.
Jiu Jitsu people need to get better at beating the wrestler not trying to be the wrestler. People don't understand I have on and off wrestled since I was 10. I do Judo. I understand the become a whole fighter aspect. But make no mistake, I'm a jiu jitsu practioner.
Plain and simple, MMA fighters that call themselves jiu jitsu practitioners that aren't top level wrestlers need to get a jiu jitsu game tailored to beat the wrestler and they need to aggressively train it. Anti wrestling and thinking that you can be GSP and get a world class wrestling game is not only ignorant, its misguiding training time. Learning wrestling is one thing, taking time away from jiu jitsu trying to master wrestling is wrong and wasting time.

I leave you with this last comparison to try and spell out what I'm saying. Its like world class BJJ fighters that learn boxing and instead using what they learned so that they can get the fight to the ground and win via submission, they play the boxing game, forget about getting the fight to the ground, and get knocked out.

I agree. I love JJ. Watching wrestlers disrespect the art (IMO) by using stall tactics bothers me in a huge way.

But on the flip side of the coin, the reason I love JJ is because it's an artform of adaptation. All the moves we know weren't invented overnight. Helio had to learn to adapt in street fights. He adapted his traditional JJ because his fights would always go to the ground. And ever since, 100's of minds came together to add more and more. "Ok, well this happens if you do this...how do we protect or counter? How do we attack from this angle?" So now JJ has encountered a new problem. How will we adapt. yeah, learn wrestling....but besides that....how can we us JJ, not wrestling, to stifle a wrestler? How can we make them scared of the takedown again? It's up to us to adapt, not complain. I believe JJ will figure it out eventually.

Originally Posted by Daniel Valdez

I leave you with this last comparison to try and spell out what I'm saying. Its like world class BJJ fighters that learn boxing and instead using what they learned so that they can get the fight to the ground and win via submission, they play the boxing game, forget about getting the fight to the ground, and get knocked out.

Jorge Gurgel. BJ Penn (against Frankie....he should've been going for the TD and submission from round one...round 2 the latest...but no, he goes for it in the 4th when he's already sweaty and exhausted. smh).

I agree with you 100%. Why bother mastering something only to play a game you're average at? Why was Randy Couture so successful for years? He was a great greco guy. Hughes? Great wrestler? Anderson Silva is great because his MT is amazing. They know the whole game, but they play to their own game plan. ANd that's why Toquino and Maia are some of my favorite fighters. Toquino's been on fire lately too. I mean, how do you keep tapping guys with the same move when they know you're gonna go for it? Mastering the move and using your skills, that's how.

holy shit.. just noticed the original post date.. now I just feel dumb lol... pretty epic bump for the guy that did it.

Originally Posted by David Rosado

How will we adapt. yeah, learn wrestling....but besides that....how can we us JJ, not wrestling, to stifle a wrestler? How can we make them scared of the takedown again? It's up to us to adapt, not complain. I believe JJ will figure it out eventually.

Now this is it. good post afterwards as well.

Having a dangerous guard is a great solution, a thing that I believe 10th Planet JJ was tailored to help accomplish. Im more confident as a whole off of my back, and the system is a big reason for that.

i only use my wrestling when im gassed out and cant finish the fight... but in all honesty I tap out higher belts than me in nogi every night because of my wrestling, they destroy me in Gi class.

Why does there have to be a distinction between wrestling and no-gi jits? IMO, they are both an integral part of the same sport of submission grappling, lacking on either side of the coin will only inhibit and slow your progress. Is it boring to watch a wrestler stall someone out for a draw or win? Yes!!!! Who's fault is it? The guy on bottom, who lost, because he didn't have an answer for what was being done to him/her. It's the same in MMA, if a fighter is being held down then they have no one but themselves to blame for not having an answer for that type of attack strategy, and it's just as much their fault for putting on a boring fight as it is the fault of the "wrestler" holding them down. It's a grapplers and MMA fighters responsibility to have an answer for what's being thrown at them. You didn't hear wrestlers and strikers complaining when the Gracies showed up and threw something new into the fight game that was hard for them to deal with. They just started learning how to better defend against it and trained to better themselves. The same thing needs to be done with wrestling. The solution is simple, get better at what you are lacking in.

If they're green to sub grappling, a honed rg works fine. If not and they're accomplished collegiate athletes, insane flexibility and flying kung fu will help tons. Otherwise, a wicked sprawl and Marcelo esque guillotine might be the answer.

Valdez, how bout some suggestions to your strategy. Im taking it personal while hijacking

BJJ GUYS HAVE THE BETTER PHILOSOPHY AND TECHNIQUE (American wrestling isn't even all that technical by comparison)
WRESTLERS HAVE THE BETTER MACHINERY AND BODY ALIGNMENT/POSTURE!!!!!!
To be world class you need to be JJ at heart and mind and have a wrestler's bio-suit.
PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!

It sounds to me, not like you hate wrestling, but that you hate stalling.

I don't see a distinction between the styles, it's all JJ to me. I'm not doing JJ when I'm in half guard and then doing wresting when I come up on the single. We all use wrestling all the time. You're just labeling a style of fighting you don't like wrestling, when it's as much stagnant jiu jitsu as it is stagnant wrestling.

I agree with what you're saying. I just think it's clearly an issue of strategy on the part of the person doing the stalling, not wrestling working really well and jiu jitsu failing.