Me & Dan Hardy are on the same page! Wrestlers are stalling to win

[AJ Camacho]

Jon, it's different than that. You will find it hard to be able to get Chill Dog on a guy with elite wrestling skills when he is pinning your hips to the mat properly. There's been many a time against higher skilled people where it is VERY hard to escape, even with good escape skills. Wrestlers are very good at keeping things tight on the top, and it's not just as simple as "Oh I'll pull Rubber Guard, or I'll just frame off his head and shrimp".

If it was that easy, everybody would be doing it. It's not that easy.

Well said. I think many people (not necessarily Jon) have misgivings about what a wrestler is actually doing in the closed guard. It's a very technical game that they are playing.

[Joshua Jarboe]

Aren't many wrestlers playing a very technical, very safe, very boring, very non-aggressive waiting game? Or are they going for a win in some way I just can't perceive?

[AJ Camacho]

I guess, but when a BJJ player does the same thing with his closed guard he's regarded as patient and technical. At least the BJJ is actually setting up something though. I mean look at that grapplers quest match between Penny Thomas and Tracy Goodell. Tracy was literally using the body lock to safely setup her grips before willing to transition and give up an opening. That was an insanely safe strategy she was employing that was crazy boring to watch for part of the later half of the match (the rest of the match was awesome).

Penny wasn't even able to work anything until the last minute when Tracy had to play a more dynamic open guard because she was running out of time.

[Joshua Jarboe]

At least she was trying to hit triangles...

...it's an interesting point though because she lost. She wasn't exactly playing it safe. I mean the parallel is valuable. But it's not as if she had a winning position that she was sitting on.

[Jonathan Wylie]

^^I highly doubt Dan Hardy is talking about his fight with GSP, he didn't even mention it.
It is obvious that GSP passed guard repeatedly and went for more than a couple submissions. He is talking about huggers. His opinion is talking about the lack of wrestling skill.

gsp made a fan out of me in that fight and made me a believer in his jiu jitsu but I also became a greg jackson hater because like i said before later in the fight Greg Jackson told gsp not to pass Dan Hardeys guard even though gsp had a clear advantage in the jiu jitsu game.

[Jonathan Wylie]

I'm not trying to be mean but if any of these so called fight finishers could sprawl worth a shit, we wouldn't be having this discussion. No offense to Hardy( he's an exciting fighter to watch), but he just stood there and watched GSP shoot in on him.

What!? so I supose Matt huges, BJ Penn and Josh Koscheck need to work on there take down defense and learn to sprawl as well right? G.S.P has the best take downs in MMA !! Thats like saying people shouldnt get knocked out by Anderson Sylva they should just improve there stand up defense or People shouldnt be getting submited by Daimen Mia they should just improve there jiu jitsu defense.

[Scott Yockel]

Nate Marquardt Comments on Dan Hardy

Dan Hardy is one person who does not enjoy the wrestling tactic used in many fights. He expressed those thoughts after two of his teammates fell short battling grapplers in their fights at UFC 118 in Boston.

"I think the problem is there's beginning to be too much wrestling in UFC Octagon, not too little of it in the gym," Hardy said in an article for the Nottingham Post. "There are a lot of people out there calling themselves 'UFC fighters' who are nothing of the kind. In the UFC, you should go for finishes.

"You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either. But there's guys out there who just want to use wrestling to hold a stalemate for 15 minutes, without ever risking going for ground and pounds or attempting submissions."

Another person who fell short due to his wrestling in his last fight is Nate Marquardt. Top middleweight contender Chael Sonnen took him down repeatedly in their fight back in February.

Marquardt takes a different approach when hearing Hardy's comments about wrestling's dominance in MMA.

"I think that's just something from someone who isn't a good wrestler," Marquardt said about Hardy. "I think wrestling is a big part of MMA, and you shouldn't complain about it, you should learn it and learn how to defend against it."

Speaking about his fight with Sonnen, Marquardt is honest about his shortcomings and what he did when he went back in the gym to ensure it doesn’t happen again.

"I was unable to defend the takedowns in my last fight, and that's why I lost the fight," Marquardt commented. "Now I'm going to be more prepared to defend the takedown no matter who I'm fighting, and I worked hard on my wrestling and I continue to work hard on my wrestling."

[michael craig]

as long as the wrestlers throwing punces how could you say he is stalling?

[Jon Watkins]

I thought I'd post one last question and comment for this thread and see what you guys think. Do all of you honestly think Rashad Evans could stall out Roger Gracie's guard? If your answer is yes then I guess I have nothing else I can say to you because your mind is beyond my swaying. But you better believe my answer is no. I also bet Roger would probably execute something as simple as framing off Rashad's head to free his hips from being pinned. And it would work not because it's easy, but because if executed properly, it's possible. Just my two cents.

[Joshua Jarboe]

My mind on this topic was made up when I saw a Shamrock - Royce Gracie superfight that was 30 minutes of boredom. UFC 3? 4? This must have been the birth of Lay and Pray. And I must admit:

1) It's understandable. No one had beaten Gracie. It's clear from the post fight interview that Shamrock wanted to show a weakness in traditional BJJ which seems to be that in full guard, it waits for you to make a mistake. That's passive.
2) In my mind he won the fight. He did more damage and Gracie did not seem a threat lying on his back for half an hour.
3) If this had continued for another 3 hours, one of them would have been able to make their point one way or the other.
4) It was still one of the most boring fights I've ever seen. It wasn't very super and it was barely a fight.
5) Shamrock's short shorts were weird then and they are weird now.