why is it ok too do intermeadiate no gi then do white belt gi but not reverse?

[robert gero]

i see this all the time you will have guys that have done mma for 10 years or guys have done no gi for 3 or 4 years and do white belt gi? like me i never train in a gi ever and i got a blue belt but i consider it a no gi blue belt and not a gi blue belt bc i dont trian in one...i was condsidering doing the pan ams as a white belt gi and blue belt no gi but some peolple said this was wrong?

[Brian Morency]

jiu jitsu is jiu jitsu gi or not. If your ranked blue no-gi & want to compete gi, you better get your gi game up & do blue. Gi isn't much different. Just more technical. no more slipping out of stuff.

[robert gero]

bjj get penalized as i have friends that have wrestled over 20 years and they enter white belt divison and then do adv no gi but not in reverse..i say fuck that...i am a blue no gi and white gi... gi and no gi is like greco roman and judo or chess and checkers...same but different!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dean Nowling]

because nogi factors in wrestling experience... 1 reason.

[leach_jeffrey]

bjj get penalized as i have friends that have wrestled over 20 years and they enter white belt divison and then do adv no gi but not in reverse..i say fuck that...i am a blue no gi and white gi... gi and no gi is like greco roman and judo or chess and checkers...same but different!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is bullshit and sand bagging. Those wrestlers aren't ranked in BJJ, so they can enter any level they want. I don't think there is anyone in the world that has separate ranks for gi and no-gi.

If your gi game aint up to snuff then take your chances at your proper rank or don't enter. If you win in gi under white it means nothing, but you could end up damaging your reputation and the reputation of your school if you get caught.

[Isaiah Mendoza]

thats a good question broski... seems like the guys who have been doing no gi for 3-4 years would dominate white belt gi considering white belts only train for like 1-3 years before they get their blue. I mean the only edge they would have is maybe some grip control, and a few collar chokes... shit that's the only thing I can think of. Doesn't really sound fair but hey.. that's just my take, could be wrong.

[robert gero]

just venting that all.. seen a guy 10 years and dvison 1 champion of arizona state enter white belt ..diego shannchez kinda of thing..lol

[Stewart Landry]

jiu jitsu is jiu jitsu gi or not. If your ranked blue no-gi & want to compete gi, you better get your gi game up & do blue. Gi isn't much different. Just more technical. no more slipping out of stuff.

You really put on a 10thplanet forum that gi is more technical .... wow. How bout its slower, with more stalls. Different but not less technical...

[Stewart Landry]

When you watch Marcelo, you'll notice how much of his gi game doesn't rely on gi grips. Most of his X Guard, Single Leg X, Butterfly, Passing and Back game doesn't use gi grips, at least not in the initial control positions. When he does, they are specific strategies, like in X Guard, where he passes the opponents near sleeve into the hand that's controlling their leg, or Butterfly Guard, with cross-grip and belt control.

It seems like he has a foundational game built on no gi, and if the gi is on then he'll use specific strategies to his advantage. This is what I've noticed from studying his material.

(Note: this is not what Marcelo has said, or probably even thinks, and I know his base is in the gi, but when I watch him roll, I think "could have done that with out the gi, that move didn't use the gi etc)

I love how wrestlers (and no-gi/sub grapplers) use the bodies natural hooks. There's just as many subtleties in gripping no-gi as there are in the gi. I think this is such a higher art than grapping a sleeve and yanking. You can be so much sloppier in technique with the gi, because as long as your grip remains, you're all good. (I like to equate the gi grips to having handles attached to the side of your opponents head in Muay Thai, or as training wheels when your no gi grips suck)

If Bruce Lee came back, I'm sure he'd say "what do you mean I need a specific piece of clothing to beat someone up? What if they take it off?"

If its less technical ... why develop ... different approaches and techniques ...

[Stewart Landry]

“When all the greco roman Olympians striving for the gold in the Olympics
train both then I will bring back the gi for my students sake.

Marcelo is very good with the gi, but he doesn’t separate from the pack in
the gi like he does no-gi. In no-gi he is the supreme god. Think about the
gi gods in the game over the last 10 years. Think of their names. Think of
the ones that were KIngs in the gi but for some reason it never translated
to ADCC. Forget about the few that did make the transition beautifully like
Roger, Jacare, and of course the no-gi Jesus, Marcelo. Forget about them for
just one second. Think about all the other amazing multiple time Mundial
champions out there that never did much no-gi.

Why is that? Why is there so many?

Why does Marcelo do so much better no-gi than gi? Again, I know he has won
the mundials a few times but I can think of a few guys that had unbelievable
dominating reigns that eclipse what Marcelo has done with the gi.
But when it comes to no-gi, Marcelo is light years ahead of them. Why?

The answer is that, like all greco roman wrestlers, Marcelo understands that
the clinch must be mastered. The clinch in every position must be mastered.
Just like the plum clinch in Muay Thai, he who has the most polished plum
clinch lands more knees.

Marcelo works on his clinch on a daily basis, clinching medicine balls, and
clinching the over/under control while riding on dudes backs. He clinches
and rides and works on his clinching endurance without even going for the
choke. He’ll ride and clinch for a few minutes working on his squeezing
endurance before securing the choke. He understands that every different no
gi position requires a different clinch to be mastered there. I know
Marcelo, I am not talking out of my ass.

Marcelo is the no-gi god because he has a stronger, tighter, harder clinch
than any other bjj player on the planet. Clinching and squeezing while
moving into scoring position and clincing and squeezing while choking
someone out. In no-gi grappling, it’s all about how powerful your squeeze
is.

To be super offensive no-gi you must develope your clinches AND master all
clinches. Every second you train with the gi you are not training your
clinch. You are training your yank and pull. Totally different. Totally
different muscles, totally different base. If you want to get offensive in
no-gi like Marcelo, then when are you working on your clinch? Unless you
train no-gi grips with the gi on like some do, you are not working your
clinch if you are grabbing the gi.

But you don’t need to develope your clinch for defense. You need to develope
pushing explosion for defense, which you can get from gi training but you
also get that from no-gi training as well. That’s why gi guys with no clinch
are still very hard to finish in no-gi competition. Explosiveness, posture
and core strength are more important for defense than developing a clinch.

Every time you train in the gi and set up a submission while yanking on
collars and sleeves you are not working on your clinch, it’s that simple.

When I get into these gi/no-gi debates, it always ends up with the gi people
never giving me specific explanations of how the gi makes your nogi game
“tighter”. All they end up saying is, “Roger, Marcelo and Jacare train in
the gi so I’m gonna train in the gi”, no break downs like the ones I’m
giving. I am giving you detailed explanations and anaolgies, but all I get
in return is,”But you trained in the gi!” and stuff like that.

Machida, Anderson, and GSP all have black belts in Karate or TKD, does that
mean that all mma fighters should start training Karate? Most submission
fiends all came from the gi, that’s all there was in the 90’s. If you were
fascinated by chokes and breaking limbs, you had to put a gi on. Even now,
most schools that specialize in submissions make you wear a gi.

And the “What about defense?” arguement. Well, yes , it’s harder to explode
out of submissions with a gi, so you are working your defensive
explosiveness but how do you defend leg locks with a gi? The answer is hold
on to your opponent’s collar. How does that make your no-gi game “tighter?”

How do you defend kimura’s in the gi? The answer is grab on to your pants.
How does that make your no-gi game “tighter?”

How do you defend against arm bars? The answer is hold on to your own
collar. How does that make your no-gi game “tighter?”

How do you defend against rear naked chokes? The answer is cross your wrists
under your chin and hold on to both your collars. How does that make your
no-gi game “tighter?”

Even when you’re on top caught in a triangle, a very popular escape is to
grab your opponent’s collar and push it down across his neck while stacking
him. How does that make your no-gi defense better again?

Judo and Greco have the same goal, throw your opponent. Judo with yanking
and pulling the gi, Greco with clinching and squeezing overhooks and
underhooks.

Bjj and sub grappling have the same goal, pass guard and submit. BJJ with
yanking and pulling the gi, sub grappling with clinching and squeezing
overhooks and underhooks. That’s it, I can’t put it into simpler terms.

I am not saying only train no-gi, and that the gi sucks. The gi is fun for
many people. If you like both train both, it’s all sooo good.

All I’m saying is that the gi does not make you no-gi “tighter”, it makes
you better in the gi, that’s it. The fact that a dude who has trained in a
gi for years and one day decides to take it off and it turns out he’s got
game no-gi does not prove that the gi makes your no-gi game tighter. A
tennis champion can hop over to raquetball and be pretty damn good from day
1, but that doesn’t mean that all aspiring raquetball players should play
tennis first to tighten up their game?

Most kickboxers in the 70’s came from TKD, Karate, and Kung fu, does that
mean that if you want to be a kickboxing champion you have to take TKD
first? That’s what they thought back then, but now we know that theory is no
longer relavent.

Gi training does not make your no-gi tighter, it actually makes it looser.
Watch ADCC 2003 and count how many times top bjj legends lost back control.
It’s like 40 times. It’s quite incredible how many times these bjj
superstars couldn’t stay on anyone’s back.

Then check how many times Marcelo has lost back control in his entire ADCC
career, I think it’s like twice. Diego Sanchez is the only dude I can
remember escaping from Marcelo’s back clinch, but it could’ve happend one or
2 more times. And that was before Diego decided to train in the gi, he was a
pure no-gi guy. Imagine that. One of the only guys to ever escape Marcelo’s
back control DIDN’T come from a gi back ground. Hmmm.

If all this clinch talk is confusing you and you’re not even sure what to
make of it or if you should believe me, ask your instructor what he thinks
about developing no-gi clinches. You never know, he might have a clinch
developing system just like Marcelo’s ”

Thanks for the Quotes off the Nogi/gi Thread