Verdum on Magalhaes loss. The White belts were correct.

[David Rosado]

The mistake was Verdums and Vinny could not even see what was happening. Also note Verdum has nothing but praise for Vinny and conceded he won without question. Yet the truth remains subjective.

Well, you train, so you should know, you may not "see" what's happening, but you can feel what's happening. Plus, I'm sure he's seen the video. I know when I drill with guys, they can always tell me what I did wrong from feeling it. "You moved around the arm so I was able to base when you were trying to bump me to my side." Or, "your focusing too much on dropping to your side and you keep forgetting to hook that leg." I'm sure a black belt like Vinny can give a well informed opinion on whether or not Werdum might've finished had he made an adjustment.

I don't think the truth is subjective. I think it's more speculative than anything. I mean, technically, we'll never know because it never happened. But I think Vinny's input can help us understand the events a bit better.

Plus, I'm a fan and it'd be cool to see homie chime in with some exclusive info.

[Justin W.]

Werdum also said told his training partner to let him do the open leg armbar on him, and he showed him that it works.

Show me one video or interview of a black belt saying it is okay to open your legs while doing an armbar. The fact that an open leg armbar works on his training partner means very little. For one, we don't know if he fixed his other mistakes that he made while armbaring Vinny (feet to the ground, not crossing his feet, having Vinny's elbow instead of his shoulder under his hips) and we don't know if his training partners elbow can bend a little back like Vinny's. As I've stated before in the other thread, it was a combination of a bunch of mistakes mixed in with Vinny's slightly flexible elbow. My elbow is the same way, it can go a little back but if someone does a proper armbar, it will surely pop. Again, saying an open leg armbar worked on his training partner doesn't mean anything. You can do a loose triangle on a thicker opponent because there's less space but you can't do that same loose triangle on someone thinner, just like you can do a sloppy armbar on someone with stiff elbows and not on someone with flexible ones.

[Justin W.]

Well, you train, so you should know, you may not "see" what's happening, but you can feel what's happening. Plus, I'm sure he's seen the video. I know when I drill with guys, they can always tell me what I did wrong from feeling it. "You moved around the arm so I was able to base when you were trying to bump me to my side." Or, "your focusing too much on dropping to your side and you keep forgetting to hook that leg." I'm sure a black belt like Vinny can give a well informed opinion on whether or not Werdum might've finished had he made an adjustment.

I don't think the truth is subjective. I think it's more speculative than anything. I mean, technically, we'll never know because it never happened. But I think Vinny's input can help us understand the events a bit better.

Plus, I'm a fan and it'd be cool to see homie chime in with some exclusive info.

I showed the video to 3 black belts at separate times and all 3 came up with the same conclusion that Werdum did a horrible armbar without me telling them anything prior.

[Taylor Culbertson]

Bottom line is... When the ref stood them up Verdum should have thrown the head kick and finished with face stomps. Can't be scared to pull the trigger.

[David Rosado]

Word Justin. I believe the same thing. Just because an armbar perfomed a certain way works on person A doesn't mean the same armbar will work on person B. The factors you mentioned seem plausible too.

But open legged arm bars can work depending on situation.

My speculation is just that Werdum is just used to doing his arm bar like that so he didn't feel the need to do it the way we think he needed to.

[Justin W.]

Its not a matter of if he did it right, its the point of the situation. Thats like saying- if only the QB completed that pass in the end zone, they woulda won! There are a ton more things going on at the moment..reasons he probably didn't do it. Hindsight is 20/20. its the point of the pressure. We alllllll know how to do armbar, just not an armbar in the finals of ADCC.
If only he passed the guard he would have won! If only he submitted him! really easy to say from your couch...or even in hindsight.

No, it's like catching the ball right before the end zone and not going in. It's like almost passing the guard and leaving just your big toe in there. The point is that he had the armbar with Vinny's arm fully extended except Werdum made mistakes. Again, I never claimed to know more than Werdum or that Werdum doesn't know how to do a proper armbar but it doesn't matter who you are, a mistake is a mistake.

[David Rosado]

I showed the video to 3 black belts at separate times and all 3 came up with the same conclusion that Werdum did a horrible armbar without me telling them anything prior.

Haha. Fair enough. In Werdum's defense, arm barring another high level BB is a tall order. I mean, yeah it worked on his training partner....but if his training partner was that good, I'd assume he'd be competing in ADCC too, right?

You are failing to understand Verdum limited English lexicon.

"Luca say, Luca say for me, my, my partner say (Insert Portuguese) "Close the legs", "lay down" "I show you, L...lay down I show you," I open my legs a just a little bit, and ahhhhyyyyyy" its ok its ok, Its crazy" crazy, crazy"

Not a difficult interpretation if you know Brazilians.

LOL. I suppose.

[Calan Ownhouse]

It's not about what he should have done. It's about respecting a high level competitor enough to assume your OBVIOUS "tips" are things he's known for years.
It is what it is and white belts (including myself) have NO damn place to give our half ass'd advise.
Sure you might think you know better. Keep it to yourself.
If you can roll with Vinny, get him in the exact same position and then finish the armbar - you have place to give tips.
Sometimes white belts can advise or remind higher graded people in gym or practice but in the finals of ADCC, just shut up.

[Mike Dewitt Jr]

It's not about what he should have done. It's about respecting a high level competitor enough to assume your OBVIOUS "tips" are things he's known for years.
It is what it is and white belts (including myself) have NO damn place to give our half ass'd advise.
Sure you might think you know better. Keep it to yourself.
If you can roll with Vinny, get him in the exact same position and then finish the armbar - you have place to give tips.
Sometimes white belts can advise or remind higher graded people in gym or practice but in the finals of ADCC, just shut up.

+1

[Michael Sioda]

Ahem, I did not cave to peer pressure. My opinions are my own & I like to think well thought out. My opinion while watching 2 of the worlds greatest jiujitsu artists compete in the final match of the worlds most prestigious no-gi tournament - is that Werdum didn't just forget how to finish an arm-bar & make a rookie mistake. He's surely practiced the arm-bar technique 1000s of times more than myself or any other non-world champion commenting on his loss. Did you notice in the video Werdum calls the arm-bar his specialty? I think when guys at that level execute a technique off the normal script they do so on purpose & for their own reasons. Reasons that work for their game & their body type.

I think that it is pretty reasonable to give him the benefit of the doubt here. While I do know that I need to pinch my legs together when finishing an arm-bar - I don't know what type of elite strategies are implemented at the top level of the game. Maybe he felt that even pinching the legs wouldn't add enough extra pressure. Maybe in their exact position closing his knees could have reduced his mobility. Maybe he felt he had maximum pressure already & didn't want to burn his legs if it would not increase his chance to finish. Maybe he was trying to bait for a transition to a tighter submission. Maybe he was being lazy. Maybe he has been tapping people for so long with slightly improper technique that he no longer executes the optimal finish - it's possible... but considering all of the other 'maybes' I stand by my original conclusion.

Werdum probably didn't make a rookie mistake & forget how to finish the arm bar. He just did what he thought was best for the situation & I defer to his opinion.