Why aren't the top grapplers better on the feet?

[David Stager]

Stop me if you've heard this one before: A couple of elite grapplers square off against each other at a tournament, both apparently renowned for their prowess on the mats. The match begins and they tentatively stare at each other; a protracted hand-fight ensues, followed by some ineffectual tie-ups, from which both grapplers promptly disengage. This goes on for at least four minutes. Every now and then a genuine takedown is attempted only to be interrupted when the competitors step out of bounds and are reset in a neutral position. Finally, someone completes a takedown with a minute left in the match and holds on for dear life until it's over. Alternatively, no takedown is scored, but someone gets an advantage or two for making an effort.

Now, I haven't been to any college wrestling matches, so I'm not sure this is the norm, but my instinct tells me this sad state of affairs is limited mostly to submission grappling tournaments. The heavier weight classes are particularly egregious, but I see a lot of dancing around and avoiding from the lighter guys too.

Why???? It is so painfully boring to watch, and frankly it shouldn't be happening. If you're the bomb on the ground, but your standup is weak, then PULL GUARD. You're just rolling the dice, at best, if you keep it on the feet. And if you don't like pulling guard or the rules penalize you for it, fine. But at least set something up. How much are you really accomplishing by slapping at your opponent's wrists and pushing away when it gets too close for comfort?

For some perspective, watch this Jacare vs. Saulo Ribeiro match (if you can stomach it):

http://dai.ly/cZ6Wdj

Now watch Matt Hughes vs. Tito Ortiz to see how a standup battle is supposed to look:

[Brent Smith]

I hate when guys spend the match doing that

[brent_littell]

There are anti stalling measures in wrestling. If u get shot on three times in a row without shooting yourself you get warned. Four unanswered shots is a point loss and five is a diqualification. As well, they will start in referees position at period changes, etc.

As far as bjj, going against a top tier guy means u don't want to give up as much as an inch. That's why you see guys constantly resetting.

[Tyler Timmermans]

There are anti stalling measures in wrestling. If u get shot on three times in a row without shooting yourself you get warned. Four unanswered shots is a point loss and five is a diqualification. As well, they will start in referees position at period changes, etc.

As far as bjj, going against a top tier guy means u don't want to give up as much as an inch. That's why you see guys constantly resetting.

also style wise jj sets up alot of moves from standing wrist control so they hand fight more and wrestlers will feed you there wrist to set up a take down.

[The kza]

its because there are less elite level grapplers than bjj guys. I've been doing bjj and college wrestling and I work for the TD and if I dont get it I tire them out at least. Plus, the more aggressive you are the better it is. No one wants to watch a hand slapping competition with 30 secs of grappling.

[Louis Ho]

That's why I've always been a fan of guys like JJ Machado. Pulls guard right away. I do the same thing in comps.

[David Rosado]

That's why I've always been a fan of guys like JJ Machado. Pulls guard right away. I do the same thing in comps.

This is why, IMO, the best rules are the ADCC rules. The proof is in the numbers. Way more subs than dec's. When you don't score TD's for the first few minutes (or take points away for pulling guard), it allows guys to play their game the way they want.

Good thread though.

[Jack LaBarge]

This is why, IMO, the best rules are the ADCC rules. The proof is in the numbers. Way more subs than dec's. When you don't score TD's for the first few minutes (or take points away for pulling guard), it allows guys to play their game the way they want.

Good thread though.

+1 ADCC rules are great. First 5 minutes no points! Go for that submission!

[Jared Gammel]

A great example from this was Cyborg vs. Werdum from ADCC 2011. I'm a fan of Cyborg, he has an absolutely amazing half guard for someone his size. But instead of the just playing his game, he did a weird 10 minute sumo-style push'a'thon with Werdum and ends up losing on a takedown, I think. That was really frustrating, especially because every other match he'd pull guard and give people major problems.

[David Stager]

So how often do you guys train takedowns? We practice shots and sprawls every class, but drilling is a different story. From what I've gathered it's a lot easier to get injured when drilling takedowns, plus there's not always enough room on the mats, and there's always sooooo much to learn on the ground besides.

Still, I would expect that high-level BJJ guys would train their wrestling and judo as well. They really don't have an excuse.

I agree that the ADCC rules are the best I've seen so far, but they still don't guarantee action. Some guys are just dying to score points, so they stall the first five minutes.