10th planet JJ vs JJ Fundamentals?

[detroitwillfall]

Coming from sport and most recently gracie jiu jitsu training, i was wondering peoples thoughts and opinions regarding the very controversial statement of "10th planet lacks fundamental jiu jitsu"? In example, escapes and defenses from basic positions, transitioning/maintaining good positions, and basic attacks?

Obviously i see the main positions of 10th planet being halfguard, rubberguard, spiderweb(for arguments sake lets say these 3 only) now do instructors or schools personally incorporate beginner fundamentals before or with 10th planet classes? or is it sort of like everyones first couple of weeks as a whitebelt where you tap and learn what works and what doesnt?


**Please note these are not my opinions by any means but just views ive seen develop and take place not only online but through out different schools, people ive encountered with over the years.

Having no experience with 10th planet other then attending some seminars for fun, i would love feel more confident in hearing you all share your experiences.

Thank you for your time!

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Machado Blue Belt(May 2012)
GJJ White Belt 1st stripe( April 2015)

[Chris Herzog]

Check out the 10th Planet warm ups, end of argument.

[Eddie Bravo]

We are extra heavy on nogi basics, you can even say ultra heavy

[detroitwillfall]

We are extra heavy on nogi basics, you can even say ultra heavy

Hey Master Eddie, Appreciate the response! I didnt want this post to sound naive from my end of things but its just the common crap you hear through schools that either fear or dont understand something new or "different".

Glad to hear it from the source though.

OSS!

[DaveScott]

The concept of the 10th planet warm ups is genius. It ensures every single student of 10th planet will invest their time practising the fundamentals within every class regardless of what level they are. You only have to watch the last couple of MTS episodes to see Eddie surrounded by his black belts and breaking down the warm ups in detail even though they have already drilled them hundreds of times. They have probably become more important to the system than some of the positions you have mentioned and have made sure you have the basics in your game. That's just my feeling from training in London, knowing how much emphasis our moonhead places on the warm ups and seeing how that drive has come straight from HQ. Also seeing these techniques instinctively being used more and more in competition as it becomes part of our DNA.

[Craig Murray]

Where I train we learn a great deal of what most people would call fundamentals. Several mount escapes, several side control escapes, arm bar from mount, armbar from technical mount, armbar from the back. But our curriculum does not have darce, guillotine, jap-necktie. It doesn't have the any of Eddie's escapes. It doesn't have lockdown, or RG, or truck.

It really begs the question of what are the fundamentals? Is lockdown fundamental? I think so, but it's not taught at my gym. So does my gym not teach fundamentals? My gym teaches DLR guard, spider guard, crab guard, all to whitebelts. Are those fundamental? I don't really think so.

I'm pretty sure that if 10p guys were all getting smashed in competition because they didn't know certain things, that Eddie and the system would evolve to handle that. I believe that if you train at a 10p school you will come away with fundamentally sound jiu jitsu.

[detroitwillfall]

Where I train we learn a great deal of what most people would call fundamentals. Several mount escapes, several side control escapes, arm bar from mount, armbar from technical mount, armbar from the back. But our curriculum does not have darce, guillotine, jap-necktie. It doesn't have the any of Eddie's escapes. It doesn't have lockdown, or RG, or truck.

It really begs the question of what are the fundamentals? Is lockdown fundamental? I think so, but it's not taught at my gym. So does my gym not teach fundamentals? My gym teaches DLR guard, spider guard, crab guard, all to whitebelts. Are those fundamental? I don't really think so.

I'm pretty sure that if 10p guys were all getting smashed in competition because they didn't know certain things, that Eddie and the system would evolve to handle that. I believe that if you train at a 10p school you will come away with fundamentally sound jiu jitsu.

i definitely can relate man. the question for me becomes whats fundamental to what im trying to gain or accomplish. ive been going through a rough time with jiu jitsu as a whole when it comes down to what style is best for me and what i want.


i dont train mma anymore, nor do i train sport. i left a gjj affiliate school in my area after being disgusted with the business/money attitude i received there after i was on the hook with auto-pay following my introductory lessons.

i understand you cant paint a broad brush and say this is how all schools or this art is because of one bad instructor but yea.

for me i think there are an abundant amount of resources available whether online or in academys/gyms. soo much information that even for myself i have to step back and say hey is this fundamental to the building blocks of my grappeling/jiu jitsu?

everything can eventually become fundamental in terms of relativity. a purple-brown belt can have a fundamental escape from side mount that transitions into a darce combo ect.. eventually people find things they are comfortable at.

[Arman Fathi]

I've seen a decent amount of curriculums and there hasn't been a system that's as all-encompassing from a no-gi perspective than 10p. Even a lot of the stuff works in Gi. My only gripe is that some may discount the value of the gi for developing reflexes and body-weight sensitivity. If it's a preference thing, I get it. Some days the grip game hurts my fingers, it's more laundry, and an unwashed gi left anywhere will almost invariably leave a putrid smell within a few minutes. Try packing a dirty gi into your checked luggage coming back from a trip, it'll smell like death. That being said, Eddie did start 10th planet only after getting a black belt in the gi, so therein lies an argument that one should master it before they discount it. I've found however that your overall game will not be adequately well-rounded without a healthy injection of 10p.

[BradEdmondson]

There's a lot of schools that consider Gracie Combatives the fundamentals. A lot of it is just everyone considers different stuff fundamentals and a lot of the people that knock other spots have never trained at them. One of the things that drew me to 10P's system is that it's a little more base, there's an emphasis on closed guard work and I liked that it avoided the heel hook/leg lock battle game a bit though I know that's changing now. I want to have a solid leg lock game don't get me wrong it's just not personally my game, I don't enjoy it as much.

[Brian Tupper]

Disclaimer: This post will sound mad-douchey, which is not the intent. Bear with me on this, and hopefully it won’t have quite the same essence of douche at the end.

This is just my take on this. Fundamentals = basics. So what are basics? Basics, it would seem, are the foundational things that make everything else work. If you were a highschool wrestler, you probably have a lot of wrestling fundamentals already down, but they often times do not translate to jiu jitsu. For example, you may keep your butt really high in the air from top side control, and this will result in getting swept, or having your opponent slide his/her knee inside and capture guards, etc. So…why are these fundamentals so different?

Well, someone (or some people) developed the fundamentals…but how? In psychology, there are different methods of learning that have been studied. One of the most applicable form of learning is called classical conditioning. Textbook definition of classical conditioning is: a procedure by which a previously neutral stimulus comes to elicit a response after it is paired with a stimulus that automatically elicits that response. For example, seeing the blue lights from a police car give most people a feeling of anxiety…something it probably didn’t do when you were a little kid. This response has been learned…you have been conditioned to feel this way, which leads you to respond. One might say a fundamental in such an instance is to take your foot off the gas pedal…it’s probably the first thing most of us do without even thinking about it. This is a conditioned response.

So…in the example of the blue lights (when comparing to the definition of classical conditioning), which components are which? The blue lights are the previously neutral stimulus (i.e. they didn’t used to make you anxious). The response is anxiety. The stimulus that automatically elicits that response is the interaction with a police officer, which boils down to a threat (possible ticket, guaranteed time wasted, authority figure detaining you on the side of the road hounding you for personal information, etc.).

Okay…all that being said, even if a person doesn’t go through what might be considered an “industry standard” fundamentals class (or whatever)…he or she will still learn many fundamentals simply by participating in jiu jitsu…it’s part of how the fundamentals were discovered (that and a ton of other methods, I’m sure). Look at the example of the wrestler with his butt in the air again…after he/she gets swept a few times, the feeling of having his/her butt in the air will elicit a feeling of anxiety (or “oh shit”), and the conditioned response will be to lower that butt. After rolling like this for a while, this same person might not have his/her hips low enough, and opponents may sneak a knee in and retain guard…eventually this will lead to a sense of anxiety when the knee starts to come in, and will result in a conditioned response of flattening that leg out and gluing that hip to the mat. This position will probably look very similar to the position taught in an “industry standard” fundamentals class.

This is how we learn a lot of things…not just in jiu jitsu. Even in a fundamentals class, a person might learn one single way to get out of mount (elbow escape for example). What if we elbow escape, and our opponent counters with a chair-sit and we get arm barred? Well…the next time we elbow escape and our opponent tries to chair sit, we will respond differently than we did the last time. Maybe we get caught with something else, maybe not, but our conditioned response it to react when the person chair-sit in this instance…we know we have to react, even if we haven’t been taught this by another person. Obviously, this is getting a bit off the beaten path of the subject to a degree, but I think this is one of the main reasons people get so pissed about the online belt promotions that do not incorporate any rolling…a lot of fundamentals are developed simply by rolling. …especially with people better than you.

Anyway…hope this makes sense.