Mendes Bros no-gi sub only superfights from Chechnya this past weekend

[Mike Nall]

Once Rafa starts playing the top around 9-10 mins in he puts the cheat code on

[Mike Nall]

[Jack Hanley]

Man...much respect to Rafa and the others for the amount of dedication and mad mat hours it has taken to turn their style into such a high level technical discipline.

But...god damn...I miss the days when sitting down was not considered the apex of ground fighting. Probably I'm alone on that...but I do really feel regret that this is such a significant part of grappling now.

ADCC currently punishes it in the finals. But, I would honestly welcome even much more draconian penalties for sitting like this.

[Royce Kim]

ADCC currently punishes it in the finals. But, I would honestly welcome even much more draconian penalties for sitting like this.

What a boring finals.

[Jack Hanley]

Yeah, I agree, and it highlights the problem. Some of the best guys in our sport would rather stall furiously than even chance a takedown when they are not allowed to sit down.

It's because Rafa and Cobrinha don't have a reason to really train for takedowns and their skillsets are a product of rules that allow sitting down. IIRC, this was the first year ADCC did this. ADCC is also basically the only tournament they compete in that does this, and ADCC only does it in the finals. So, there's never been much incentive for them to hone their takedowns. They know they can get to the finals without takedowns, and basically just wing it once they get there (and only at ADCC starting in 2013).

Olympic wrestling gold medal matches are generally exciting. NCAA D1 finals matches are generally exciting. It's because they know takedowns are a must in every match (not just the finals) and actually train for it.

If sitting was penalized heavily enough in every match in every tournament then guys would actually train for takedowns and the stand up would be exciting just like it is wrestling.

Just my opinion. I know I will probably be in the severe minority on this.

Grappling is an incredible sport that has shaped my adult life in a lot of ways. I just think it would be even better if we replace "sit down menacingly" with "hit a full speed takedown".

[Royce Kim]

Olympic wrestling gold medal matches are generally exciting. NCAA D1 finals matches are generally exciting. It's because they know takedowns are a must in every match (not just the finals) and actually train for it.

I'd say it's exciting because of the lack of submissions.

[Apperz]

Yeah, I agree, and it highlights the problem. Some of the best guys in our sport would rather stall furiously than even chance a takedown when they are not allowed to sit down.

It's because Rafa and Cobrinha don't have a reason to really train for takedowns and their skillsets are a product of rules that allow sitting down. IIRC, this was the first year ADCC did this. ADCC is also basically the only tournament they compete in that does this, and ADCC only does it in the finals. So, there's never been much incentive for them to hone their takedowns. They know they can get to the finals without takedowns, and basically just wing it once they get there (and only at ADCC starting in 2013).

Olympic wrestling gold medal matches are generally exciting. NCAA D1 finals matches are generally exciting. It's because they know takedowns are a must in every match (not just the finals) and actually train for it.

If sitting was penalized heavily enough in every match in every tournament then guys would actually train for takedowns and the stand up would be exciting just like it is wrestling.

Just my opinion. I know I will probably be in the severe minority on this.

Grappling is an incredible sport that has shaped my adult life in a lot of ways. I just think it would be even better if we replace "sit down menacingly" with "hit a full speed takedown".

I don't think they were stalling (if this is the match where they are both standing for 45 minutes - I can't see as I'm at work), I think they knew how difficult each other was to take down and they also knew that pulling guard would be incredibly difficult on one another. Cobrinha and Mendes are monster guard passes and have incredible balance. It was a very, very difficult match for them both as a result - they were waiting for the other to make a mistake and when you get two guys of this level together it just doesn't happen.

[Jack Hanley]

It's a fair point that guillotines and other subs change the dynamics of takedowns.

But, it seems like the stand up portion of matches in submission grappling where at least one of the guys has high level takedown skills are generally pretty short and usually A LOT more exciting than that Rafa vs. Cobrinha ADCC 2013 final.

I'm thinking of matches like the Team Takedown vs. Team Guard Pullers series at Grappler Quest: Johnny Hendricks vs. Diffley, Shane Roller vs. Ryan Hall, Rosholt vs. Raedy (both D1 wrestlers in that match).

Rustam Chsiev's matches. Toquinho's matches. Jake Shields ADCC matches. Gilbert Melendez's ADCC/GQ matches. GSP's ADCC matches.

There are exceptions, but the stand up portion of matches with these guys are generally pretty exciting and/or short even though submissions are allowed. Even in that Rosholt vs. Raedy match where you have two D-1 wrestlers, the stand up action lasts less than 90 seconds and it's reasonably active. Shields vs. Diego Sanchez (both wrestlers) in ADCC is another example at around 20 seconds of standup before a takedown.

Subs definitely change how they go for takedowns. But, it seems like the rules the contestants came up under (rules that force takedowns vs. rules that allow sitting down) are a much bigger determinant in how exciting/swift the stand up is.

[Jack Hanley]

I don't think they were stalling (if this is the match where they are both standing for 45 minutes - I can't see as I'm at work), I think they knew how difficult each other was to take down and they also knew that pulling guard would be incredibly difficult on one another. Cobrinha and Mendes are monster guard passes and have incredible balance. It was a very, very difficult match for them both as a result - they were waiting for the other to make a mistake and when you get two guys of this level together it just doesn't happen.

I get where you're coming from. I don't mean they were stalling in the sense of stalling for the clock to run out. I mean they were stalling having to actually go for a takedown. Neither one has ever had to focus on takedowns to the extent they would if sitting were disallowed throughout their careers, so they were just stalling and hoping for the other person to commit to a takedown attempt instead.

I don't think we would have seen this if they had gone their whole careers taking a penalty point or two every time they sat down. I think they would have gotten good at being aggressive on the feet just like wrestlers. The guys in the gold medal match in the Olympics are also contending with nearly impossible opponents, but they generally manage to be aggressive. It's just that the rules they came up under fostered that whereas the "sit if you like" rules that Rafa and Cobrinha came up under do not (at all).

[Liquidrob]

Rafa is the best in the world, Gi or No Gi, unbelievable

Fun to see Gui in a No gi match, the only other match I remember seeing him in on video was his match with Rafa in an old AD pro event