EBI Rules > ADCC Rules

[Jason Mallory]

Andre Galvao vs Romula Barral Berkut 2. The rule set appeared to be like ADCC. What would it have been like under EBI rules ?

[Mike Nall]

I don't even really disagree with you in theory but I also don't think it's a great idea to just take one match that's boring as fuck as use that as an example of why X rules are better than Y rules. I can post blistering ADCC finals matches between Andre galvao and Braulio Estima (2 of them), Marcelo Garcia and Pablo Popovitch, Rafa Mendes and Cobrinha, Leo Vieira and Rani Yahya, Jacare and Roger Gracie, the list goes on and on. ADCC rules got to be much worse in 2011 when they started giving a -1 to anyone who pulled guard in the finals only, during the first half of the match. The amount of classic finals matches pre 2011 and 2011 and beyond is ridiculous. The best ADCC finals match since that rule came into place is Andre Galvao vs "Toquinho" Palhares and that rule is destroying the excitement of the ADCC finals.

[Jason Mallory]

I don't even really disagree with you in theory but I also don't think it's a great idea to just take one match that's boring as fuck as use that as an example of why X rules are better than Y rules. I can post blistering ADCC finals matches between Andre galvao and Braulio Estima (2 of them), Marcelo Garcia and Pablo Popovitch, Rafa Mendes and Cobrinha, Leo Vieira and Rani Yahya, Jacare and Roger Gracie, the list goes on and on. ADCC rules got to be much worse in 2011 when they started giving a -1 to anyone who pulled guard in the finals only, during the first half of the match. The amount of classic finals matches pre 2011 and 2011 and beyond is ridiculous. The best ADCC finals match since that rule came into place is Andre Galvao vs "Toquinho" Palhares and that rule is destroying the excitement of the ADCC finals.

Good points... and who knows, maybe these guys would have a boring fight with EBI rules. ADCC was the pinnacle until EBI imho. As more top guys enter EBI it's prestige will continue to grow.

[Craig Murray]

ADCC rules suck balls. This year the top weight division was won by a guy who never scored a point and did no grappling at all.

[Mike Nall]

Good points... and who knows, maybe these guys would have a boring fight with EBI rules. ADCC was the pinnacle until EBI imho. As more top guys enter EBI it's prestige will continue to grow.

It's such a shame that ADCC rukles have gone this way because younger people in this sport may not realize that it was THE event and 2003-2011 were spectacular and then 2013 and 2015 have been pretty lame. I imagine there are some good grapplers out now at purple belt even that may have not even seen 2011 or before.

This match was just a perfect whirlwind to set the stage for a boring match. They both are usually exciting. At ADCC this year Barral slammed a couple guys back to back and ripped their arms off with kimuras. But he never did great success at ADCC for years (lost bronze match in '07 and lost first match by sub in '11) until 2013 when he decided to work his wrestling. Galvao also went from bronze ('07) to silver ('09) to finally gold in '11 after heavily working his wrestling. Galvao is known for his blistering guard passing and was able to pass and submit Braulio Estima in the '13 ADCC Superfight after being posterized with an inverted triangle as he tried to pass in their '09 finals match.

Neither guy wanted to be on the bottom in that match and I'm not sure any ruleset would have changed that. We even saw Denny Prokopos in a wrestling heavy match against Rafael Domingos, so sometimes it happens.

EBIs prestige will grow a lot and I love how it's going. I'm sure the 50k prize money will attract some big names. I think the amount of subs in regulation may drop a little bit as the best of the best start participating but I can't wait to see it. I think EBI 6 will have some heavy hitters.

ADCC rules suck balls. This year the top weight division was won by a guy who never scored a point and did no grappling at all.

I think ADCC is at a point where they need to undo that finals rule and also consider seriously doing the tournament over 3 days or having all weight division matches on one day and only absolute the 2nd day. By having the semis, finals, bronze matches on day two, and ALSO having the Absolute on day 2, the absolute competitors are fucking exhausted and you're going to get less exciting absolute matches.

Also the guy that won the absolute, Claudio Calasans, is really weird. He has some epic matches and he also has some of the most boring matches in jiu jitsu history so he could find a way to make any format boring.

The Absolute this year did have some fun matches like Garry Tonon vs Vinny Magalhaes, and all 4 of Rodolfo Vieira's matches (Ben henderson, Rafael Lovato Jr, Joao Gabriel, and Yuri Simoes)

[Ben Eddy]

Edit: this is responding to Mike Nall's post on ADCC rules.

I disagree with the guard pull rule, but there was a very clear reason they had for implementing it.

If you're following the evolution of high level JJ matches, you have probably noticed that the guard has progressed much faster than practitioners abilities to pass it. We are at a point now where most of the elite players have guards that haven't been passed in years. I kept stats at this last No-gi worlds. At the adults black belt level, when tracking all the matches the winners of each bracket had, there were a total of 5 times when a guard was successfully passed.. 5.. One or two of these being in the same match and most against opponents who just were outmatched by the bracket winner. When two elite level JJ competitors match up, it's almost guaranteed that neither will be able to pass the other's guard. There are some exceptions of course of people who have kept a high pressure passing game and are still somewhat successful with it at a high level. But for the most part, even these high level passers, rafa, galvao, DJ, Pena, are typically unable to pass guard when they run into an opponent who is truly at the elite level.

When you are going against someone who has an "unpassable guard", your only scoring opportunities are TD's and subs/sweeps from your own guard.

So if you take this into account, what is the optimal strategy when you are going into the finals? You absolutely need to be the first guy to pull guard. If your opponent pulls guard on you first, how are you going to win? How are you going to score? It's infinitely harder for you to pass his guard than it is for him to sweep or even submit you.

This is what we were starting to see. It was becoming a battle of who pulls guard first. This is all No-Gi worlds is currently. I watched each match closely and kept stats, the matches were very often deciding by who did a better job of pulling guard first and continuing to beat opponent to a guard pull when the match was restarted in the center.

One of the main mistakes I saw competitors make was if they were behind on points or advantages, if there was a standing restart, they would not realize they could not let their opponent pull guard before them. If your behind on points and your opponent beats you to pulling guard, it's over. He can just hang out in his unpassable guard and you have no way of scoring points.

Now there were exceptions at No-gi worlds, DJ jackson won from guys making the poor decision of wrestling with him and giving up TD points and for those who pulled, he slowly grinded out the match until he found a single almost pass where he would get an advantage to win. But for the most part, the guard player was the winner and it is where the evolution of the game is currently headed. (currently this is more the case for the lighter weights than the heavier weights, but we are seeing the game be brought to the heavier weight classes as well with guys like Keenan, lucas leite and others)

So those are my thoughts on it. I think the problem is actually stemming from how JJ is evolving. The guard right now has evolved much faster than the ability to pass. As long as that continues to be the case, there will be a battle to pull guard first. The matches prior to 2010 were so great at ADCC I think more because of where JJ was at during that time, more than because of the ruleset. I'm not so sure that if we would take out the guard pull penalty, ADCC matches would be impressive again. We would just have guys rushing to be the first to pull guard. I think the penalty shouldn't be there and that we need to let the sport evolve to find the solution, but that's where we're at right now and I see why they made the rule.

This is also btw why leg lock players dominate EBI and will likely continue to dominate the sub only game (until passing catches up). A leg lock player doesn't mind a double guard pull. And in a no sub format, it doesn't matter who pulls first. The leg lock player can just sit whenever they please and stay sitting. If this leg lock player has an elite level guard, then it's likely it's practically unpassable at this point like many other elite practitioner's guards are. What do you do against a leg lock player who's guard you can't pass? There really aren't any options except to swap leg locks with them.. But that's another subject.

[Jason Mallory]

I disagree with the guard pull rule, but there was a very clear reason they had for implementing it.

If you're following the evolution of high level JJ matches, you have probably noticed that the guard has progressed much faster than practitioners abilities to pass it. We are at a point now where most of the elite players have guards that haven't been passed in years. I kept stats at this last No-gi worlds. At the adults black belt level, when tracking all the matches the winners of each bracket had, there were a total of 5 times when a guard was successfully passed.. 5.. One or two of these being in the same match and most against opponents who just were outmatched by the bracket winner. When two elite level JJ competitors match up, it's almost guaranteed that neither will be able to pass the other's guard. There are some exceptions of course of people who have kept a high pressure passing game and are still somewhat successful with it at a high level. But for the most part, even these high level passers, rafa, galvao, DJ, Pena, are typically unable to pass guard when they run into an opponent who is truly at the elite level.

When you are going against someone who has an "unpassable guard", your only scoring opportunities are TD's and subs/sweeps from your own guard.

So if you take this into account, what is the optimal strategy when you are going into the finals? You absolutely need to be the first guy to pull guard. If your opponent pulls guard on you first, how are you going to win? How are you going to score? It's infinitely harder for you to pass his guard than it is for him to sweep or even submit you.

This is what we were starting to see. It was becoming a battle of who pulls guard first. This is all No-Gi worlds is currently. I watched each match closely and kept stats, the matches were very often deciding by who did a better job of pulling guard first and continuing to beat opponent to a guard pull when the match was restarted in the center.

One of the main mistakes I saw competitors make was if they were behind on points or advantages, if there was a standing restart, they would not realize they could not let their opponent pull guard before them. If your behind on points and your opponent beats you to pulling guard, it's over. He can just hang out in his unpassable guard and you have no way of scoring points.

Now there were exceptions at No-gi worlds, DJ jackson won from guys making the poor decision of wrestling with him and giving up TD points and for those who pulled, he slowly grinded out the match until he found a single almost pass where he would get an advantage to win. But for the most part, the guard player was the winner and it is where the evolution of the game is currently headed. (currently this is more the case for the lighter weights than the heavier weights, but we are seeing the game be brought to the heavier weight classes as well with guys like Keenan, lucas leite and others)

So those are my thoughts on it. I think the problem is actually stemming from how JJ is evolving. The guard right now has evolved much faster than the ability to pass. As long as that continues to be the case, there will be a battle to pull guard first. The matches prior to 2010 were so great at ADCC I think more because of where JJ was at during that time, more than because of the ruleset. I'm not so sure that if we would take out the guard pull penalty, ADCC matches would be impressive again. We would just have guys rushing to be the first to pull guard. I think the penalty shouldn't be there and that we need to let the sport evolve to find the solution, but that's where we're at right now and I see why they made the rule.

This is also btw why leg lock players dominate EBI and will likely continue to dominate the sub only game (until passing catches up). A leg lock player doesn't mind a double guard pull. And in a no sub format, it doesn't matter who pulls first. The leg lock player can just sit whenever they please and stay sitting. If this leg lock player has an elite level guard, then it's likely it's practically unpassable at this point like many other elite practitioner's guards are. What do you do against a leg lock player who's guard you can't pass? There really aren't any options except to swap leg locks with them.. But that's another subject.

I appreciate the time and thought you put into your post but honestly... EBI rules > ADCC rules. I feel that ADCC should follow the Sub Only movement and adopt EBI rules. We have no way of knowing if the EBI rules would increase the submission rate at ADCC until they actually try it. Don't get me wrong, ADCC will forever have it's place in the history of submission grappling but I would love to see what would happen if the elite grapplers at ADCC competed under Eddie's rules.

[Mike Nall]

I appreciate the time and thought you put into your post but honestly... EBI rules > ADCC rules. I feel that ADCC should follow the Sub Only movement and adopt EBI rules. We have no way of knowing if the EBI rules would increase the submission rate at ADCC until they actually try it. Don't get me wrong, ADCC will forever have it's place in the history of submission grappling but I would love to see what would happen if the elite grapplers at ADCC competed under Eddie's rules.

The problem is that no one at ADCC gives a shit about anything either way. It's a billionaire's play thing that he used to be interested in and doesn't care so much now. He doesn't even attend live. They have lots of strange rules that have never been amended or changed. It's 3 points for the back but for 4 points if you sweep someone all the way past their guard. They almost never have any budget and they had shitty puzzle mats this year and in 2013 the mats were falling apart during the finals.

For whatever reason there's just been a huge decline in quality over the past 2 years.

Actually I'm not sure that -1 guard pull for the finals hasn't been in place forever. I'm about to watch some 05-09 finals matches over the next day and see if I can spot anything.

I agree it would be interesting to try but I also think EBI should be its own awesome thing.

[Craig Murray]

I also think EBI should be its own awesome thing.

EBI the tournament is it's own thing. EBI the rule-set should not be exclusive to the EBI tournament. ADCC would be better with EBI rules. Fuck, EBI already is ADCC with better rules, more prize-money, and weaker competition (for now). There are already many tournaments around the US using EBI rules.

EBI rules are the future... Eddie, in his infinite wisdom, figured that shit out and now it's on!

[Ben Eddy]

I appreciate the time and thought you put into your post but honestly... EBI rules > ADCC rules. I feel that ADCC should follow the Sub Only movement and adopt EBI rules. We have no way of knowing if the EBI rules would increase the submission rate at ADCC until they actually try it. Don't get me wrong, ADCC will forever have it's place in the history of submission grappling but I would love to see what would happen if the elite grapplers at ADCC competed under Eddie's rules.

I actually was just responding to Mike Nall's post about ADCC's penalty for pulling guard.

I agree with EBI>adcc if entertainment for the broadest group of people is your goal. There should have been a quote in my post to point out that I was just responding to Mike. But it is also pertinent for this conversation because it's about the problems that point tournaments are having right now. They are having problems, in my opinion, because of the evolution of the game as of late rather than because of any particular rule changes. When many rightly remember the amazing matches we used to have in these other rule sets, this leads them to point towards recent rule changes in those rule sets as the culprit. I think it has more to do with how the game has evolved.

EBI helps show the game a bit better for now with how the game has evolved, but it will likely run into it's own problems too once the elite level players join in and people are given time to evolve with it.