Worry about Points or go for the Sub?

[Alex Canders]

What if you are a bottom player? Points are given for a lot of dominant positions. Usually I'm the smaller, weaker opponent. I have to count strictly on my game, which is usually all from the bottom. I love spiderweb, gangsta lean, skydive...I like the top game, but I can't expect to always get there in an absolute match against a 200lb chick. It's gonna be lockdown, rubberguard, etc.
Correct, it is a sport. If all you care about is winning, that's awesome, do you. Points all day and a sub if you can get it. I personally want to win for real, a submission. To legitimately get the in a position where they're going to sleep or getting a limb broken...now to me, that is a flipping win.

Well, to be honest James, I have never been to a wrestling state championship. But of course they will have to be on the ground before either person can even get a pin. I would assume they would get the pin ASAP and not stall or try to get in other positions if they're close to getting the pin, or ESP if they have a time limit.

I see the points especially the side control and mount positional points as places where striking would give you an advantage. A lot is to be said for being on top and able to drop your weight into your strikes.

I have done my best in submission only competitions and can't recall the last win I got where I didn't sub someone but personally I want to compete in MMA so the takedown and top game is becoming more and more relevant to me.

[Just Kadek]

Submission! Points is for sissy

[James O'Brien II]

What if you are a bottom player? Points are given for a lot of dominant positions. Usually I'm the smaller, weaker opponent. I have to count strictly on my game, which is usually all from the bottom. I love spiderweb, gangsta lean, skydive...I like the top game, but I can't expect to always get there in an absolute match against a 200lb chick. It's gonna be lockdown, rubberguard, etc.
Correct, it is a sport. If all you care about is winning, that's awesome, do you. Points all day and a sub if you can get it. I personally want to win for real, a submission. To legitimately get the in a position where they're going to sleep or getting a limb broken...now to me, that is a flipping win.

Well, to be honest James, I have never been to a wrestling state championship. But of course they will have to be on the ground before either person can even get a pin. I would assume they would get the pin ASAP and not stall or try to get in other positions if they're close to getting the pin, or ESP if they have a time limit.

I'm a 129 lb competitor. So amongst the men. I may have a better understanding of your struggles than most.

I'm not going to set here and say how I've pulled guard, against much larger opponents, and spent 85 percent of the match still on top. Which I have. (Videos in the Forum)

But I would like to say that if you can master your sweeps from guard (lockdown, butterfly, full guard) the larger opponents tend to be weaker off their backs. They tend to be less technical. Scramble. Which exposes them for what you call a "real" win.

I could go into a big long discussion about what a "real" win means to me. Because some of the matches I've won on points have meant more to me than ones I have finished by submission. What I would like to say is that as a fan, and I'm a huge fan of this sport, I happen to compete in this as well. When I look up the results of: Grappler's Quest, NAGA, IBJJF, etc. I simply look for who won. Came in 1st. 2nd. Maybe even 3rd. I don't look at who won by submission. Or who won by points.

The wrestling reference was to emphasize that the competitors involved made it so far and their goals are to win. Also it should emphasize that you have to get your opponent to the ground before you can execute a pin. As you pointed out. Maybe that was too obvious to be a good reference, I'll work on a better one. Haha.

I have a training partner I've been with for years that seems to have the same outlook as you. "I don't care about points, I am just looking for that kill (submission)". To his credit. For the past couple of years. All of his losses have come by losing the points battle. But he hasn't finished a single submission over that span either. Never once won a match on points, obviously.

I'm not saying this applies to you. But for him it reads as an ego problem. "I didn't really lose that match. I just ran out of time" When in reality. Yes you did lose that match. You didn't advance to the next round. You didn't receive the 1st place price. Nor did you compete for the 1st place price. -- Don't be like that guy. Please! (:

[DavidBaut]

Go for the kill! !!!!! ALWAYS!!

[sean applegate]

It's ok to go for the kill, but it's a game. Games have rules. People are going to exploit the rule sets that govern them. You can't blame a guy for stalling if that is a legitimate way to win under the rule set you are competing in. If you don't like points, don't compete in points tournaments.

Getting upset about points losses is like being up set that a football game was won by a team that just kicked field goals the whole game. Who cares if they couldn't get a touchdown, they won within their given ability to do so.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't play for subs. It just negates any complaints about strategy.

[Michael Milstid]

SUB OR GO HOME!!!! A win is a win but it's definitely more gratifying to win by submission then points. when I compete I try to think position before submission just as a back up plan, but my goal is not to stall but to end with the kill.

[John Mejia]

My mind set when I go into competition is this

-Get The Takedown
-Pass the guard
-Finish

If I get Taken down

-Regain Guard
-Don't let them pass
-Sweep To Top
-Stay on bottom
-Finish

Points to me don't matter but if you're not passing my guard. You're not submitting me. If I'm not passing your guard I'm not submitting you. It's always about the finish, but at the same time it's about where I'm at and how I can get to a better position with a little bit of effort. Always go for the finish though, it leaves no doubt that you Are the better practitioner. Anyone can argue advantage or points. You can't argue getting subbed.

[Tori Applegate]

I agree, not good to make it an ego problem. If I don't get the sub I feel like I lost for sure. I could see how being on top will make people scramble. Just depends on who you are up against and how good your top game is. There are plenty of entertaining matches won by points I'm sure. But man, when I was watching Metamoris II, I know I was disappointed when a lot of them didn't finish, but they've decided to proclaim a winner, basically by points now. They're important I suppose in the case that there is no finish.

[Ryan Brick]

not all wins are the same guys,

its a very different feeling when you slaughter an opponent and win in 15 seconds as opposed to a 10 min battle where you win because you passed guard once and held side. Do you want to be a 27 time world champ via advantage points or sub victories.

I want to have my skill be at the pinnacle of the sport, I want to be the best that I can be and to me that means finishing in comps.

I think that you compete how you train and if you like dragging people into 20 min battles you probably wont finish lots in comp, sometimes at my gym we set goals for sparing like: finish in under 2 min, choose a position and you win if you hold it until the timer ends, pick a submission and get it from any position, pick a specific move and hit it as many times, one person is allowed to finish and starts in a good position and the other can just defend subs but not escape, sometimes the goal is just to make a joke and make your opponent laugh

Sometimes in matches people just throw and get side and try and hold it with all they have, I think that's a very good skill to have and a very important aspect of grappling but at the same time get just as good at controlling spiderweb as mount and you'll finish people

When I see people choose not to attempt submission I assume that they are not complete grapplers because they are afraid that if they try anything that they will lose control and lose the match, for me I want to be better then my opponent everywhere I want it so that once I isolate your arm your on a slippery slope that ends in my victory

[Ryan Brick]

My mind set when I go into competition is this

-Get The Takedown
-Pass the guard
-Finish

If I get Taken down

-Regain Guard
-Don't let them pass
-Sweep To Top
-Stay on bottom
-Finish

Points to me don't matter but if you're not passing my guard. You're not submitting me. If I'm not passing your guard I'm not submitting you. It's always about the finish, but at the same time it's about where I'm at and how I can get to a better position with a little bit of effort. Always go for the finish though, it leaves no doubt that you Are the better practitioner. Anyone can argue advantage or points. You can't argue getting subbed.

i agree advance position and sub