Blackbelts getting tapped

[Ryan Boor]

Just a general question here but if a black belt is legit rolling with his/her students (like they should be) how often are they actually getting tapped or at least put in serious trouble?

[Arman Fathi]

I've been watching MG in Action a lot lately and I've been noticing Marcelo just lets his students attack and a fair number of good purple or browns have put him deep enough in a hole that he's forced to tap. In no way do I believe this is truly indicative of who'd win if they were playing for keeps, however. It just seems to me that it's a testament to evaluating how some higher belts are progressing, that they have the ability to put pressure on a guy for a sub. Experiencing and feeling that type of pressure could just be a way of an instructor observing how dangerous some of his/her students are getting. To be fair, this is all my general observation and perspective. I'd be curious as to what a black belt with students would say.

[Enrique "Kiko"]

If a black belt doesn't happen to know a new move, they can get tapped by it. I saw a really good black belt get tapped by a white belt using the JNT. He asked what that move was and how to do it. He didn't get tapped by it the rest of that open mat session. Also how a BB rolls with a lower belt to train is very different than how they'd roll in a high level competition. I'd think nothing of it.

[Enrique "Kiko"]

I'd be curious as to what a black belt with students would say.

A BB I train with says he lets students sub him on purpose if they earn the position and get a legit sub attempt. He'll defend correctly, but with like 10% power so that the people learning the subs/sweeps get a feel of resistance. Think of how it is with weight training and working with progressively higher weights/more intense routines. I'm thinking one way of teaching is to make the resistances harder as the student progresses. My coach uses about 0% strength on me, 25% of his speed, and 100% technique, with mini pauses between his transitions to give me a chance to create space or establish controls, but I've never even come close to a sub attempt on him...yet. =D

[Mario Lopez Alvarez]

Obviously im not a BB, but i've been teaching consistently for over two years now, and on and off for about 4, so I have guys who are primarily my students. I've seen them go from knowing nothing to improving on their jiu jitsu journey. So compared to them, I'm a BB, but they do catch me every so often. It's usually with a leg lock, but not always. I take it as a compliment.

There are different levels of rolling, and yes, I have let students tap me on purpose.

I have tapped black belt/brown belt practitioners before, but I take it with a grain of salt. It feels good, but who knows if he has just going easy on me. And if they weren't, that doesn't mean they are not a BAMF's.

Belts, who taps who, those things are fun, but they are not the most important thing.

[KamikazePunishment]

Competition is different.
In house learning with students is about guiding them in a direction to make them comfortable in uncomfortable situations as your students growth is far superior.
Just my opinion on the situ.

[Apperz]

I've been watching MG in Action a lot lately and I've been noticing Marcelo just lets his students attack and a fair number of good purple or browns have put him deep enough in a hole that he's forced to tap. In no way do I believe this is truly indicative of who'd win if they were playing for keeps, however. It just seems to me that it's a testament to evaluating how some higher belts are progressing, that they have the ability to put pressure on a guy for a sub. Experiencing and feeling that type of pressure could just be a way of an instructor observing how dangerous some of his/her students are getting. To be fair, this is all my general observation and perspective. I'd be curious as to what a black belt with students would say.

I was going to reply with the exact same example. Marcelo seems to put himself in a position where the opponent has a 70% / 30% advantage and then Marcelo works to get out of it and into an advantageous position. Once in a good position he looks to attack and get a sub then at the reset he will sometimes do the above, sometimes not.

Again, as the above says, Marcelo doesn't fight once a position is put on: he just taps. I guess that in his mind if a purple/brown belt gets him into a bad position that is the problem he needs to fix, not the defence of the actual sub. Rafael Mendes, for example, wouldn't be letting you get out of an anaconda choke, so whether you can get out or not against a lower level competitor is meaningless.

So, essentially, I guess what Marcelo is doing when rolling with students is looking to practice the transitional game and test that of his students. Whether you can hold on against an armbar being cranked or whether you have the willingness to break a training partner's arm during sparring doesn't matter to him.

[Arman Fathi]

At a certain point, people get good enough that you can't let them into certain dead zones, or else you're just asking for it. I saw a brown belt get Marcelo into jiu claw and create an angle and get the tap on Marcelo's arm. Marcelo was probably defending 2-3%. The guy was going 100% and was pretty sharp, and had clearly drilled the technique thoroughly. Obviously with all his accomplishments, Marcelo has nothing to prove. This student probably knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that Marcelo could waste him if he tried. Clearly not every black belt is a Marcelo or a Rafa or whomever. There are different levels, but also keep in mind that a black belt would not learn as much if they were always intent on imposing their will. They'd probably go on defense 0-.0001% of the time against their students for real if they always went balls out all day every day. But allowing themselves to get mounted or side mounted or have their back taken provides a value that they wouldn't have if they had an ego in their training. Letting go of the ego completely, in my mind, is a textbook trait of a black belt. There's a lot to learn from rolling with them, but unfortunately (and I'm slightly guilty of this) the intensity that a student comes in with could take away from feeling the movements of a guy with much more mat time than you. Athleticism, age, strength, and things of that nature that aren't exactly technique related can all come into play. Black belts are humans. They have good and bad days. They got their black belts because at certain points, in certain rolls, they tapped when they probably could have kept fighting. They stayed consistent and hedged against injury to fight another day. They're black belts for a reason.

[Arman Fathi]

If a black belt doesn't happen to know a new move, they can get tapped by it. I saw a really good black belt get tapped by a white belt using the JNT. He asked what that move was and how to do it. He didn't get tapped by it the rest of that open mat session.

I'd take this with a grain of salt. I was a 2 stripe white belt and I caught a third-degree black belt in a cross-choke setup I had learned from the guard. It was at that moment that I realized I had a gift and decided to sign up for the Absolute Worlds. Unfortunately, they said I hadn't completed the prerequisite time at white belt yet, nor had I completed any time at blue, purple, or brown. I told them that even BJ Penn wasn't catching black belts with cross-chokes from the guard with only 3 months of training. The IBJJF evidently has its own agenda and now I'm stuck behind a mile of bureaucratic red tape. Or it coulda been that he was just observing and letting me attack.

[Craig Murray]

If the blackbelt is trying to teach the people he's rolling with, he should be tapping regularly. The blackbelt is supposed to be guiding the lower belt to use correct technique. When correct technique is applied, the result is supposed to be an advancement in position or a submission.

If you see a blackbelt who never gets tapped by lower belts, that blackbelt is not a very good teacher. He might be a badass jiujitsu practitioner, but he's not a teacher.

That's my take anyway.