Finishing arm triangle from kesa gatame OK?

[Guilherme da Silva]

Don't forget that in Judo, you don't need the tap to win when you pin your opponent to the ground. You just need to hold him in side control or mount for 25 seconds. That may be a reason why Judo fighters don't use figure-four - they just need the control position, no need to finish the fight.
And yeah, figure four + knee on the belly is a killer!

[Chris Herzog]

The main reason in why you see it done in Judo from a Kesa Gatame position or Kata Gatame postion (on the knee next to the hip), is to maintain the hold down/pin. It has nothing to do with the arm position (Figure four vs Gable Grip). It's about maintaining chest contact. If you are knee on the belly it negates the hold down.

[MikeW]

You can finish the arm triangle from the bottom using the ryan hall method. You can't one arm it but gable or three finger grip with lockdown makes for a very hard crank/twist/choke.

[bobby rivers]

^On who?

[Luc Lévesque]

^On who?

On whoever is stock in Mike armtriangle. Trust me!

[MikeW]

^On who?

On whoever. I don't see why you think you need the figure four from your back. The guy's not going anywhere once you have a hold of his head and arm.

I find it hard to tap guys with big shoulders and arms with the figure four. Tougher guys just hold out and it exhausts my arms, I don't get a good angle for choking. By turning my far peck into his arm it creates a much better angle and purer choke. To me this especially applies when I'm on my back because you don't have the knee on belly for leverage/to create the crank.

Just my personal preference though.

[bobby rivers]

As long as you're not toolin a bunch of lower belts Your school is a good enough voucher for me.

This is what I was sayin. So many preferences. My gym owner loves this sub and he swears by the gable grip(top). I've had a lot of success with this as well and if it's workin for ya do your thang. I've found the opposite though, bigger shoulders just means a bigger cushion fill in the gaps, making the choke tighter. And the debate continues.

[Brandon Mccaghren]

This is my best submission by far. Not even close.

Here's my take: figure 4 is the best grip for the kill. But the grip is so strong that it doesn't help you understand the mechanics of the choke as well as it should. In theory, I should (and I very regularly do) finish this choke without engaging my outside arm. This teaches me to position my inside shoulder properly and to drive my weight at the proper angle. And it forces me to retreat with my upper body to find the proper entry position for my inside shoulder.

Lay your belly on the mat and gable grip until you learn to make the kill with ZERO squeeze. Now you can add the figure 4 grip and the knee on the belly and it's instant death.

One of these days I'll get my Brown Belt and trying to explain things on the forum will be much easier.

[Brandon Mccaghren]

On whoever. I don't see why you think you need the figure four from your back. The guy's not going anywhere once you have a hold of his head and arm.

I find it hard to tap guys with big shoulders and arms with the figure four. Tougher guys just hold out and it exhausts my arms, I don't get a good angle for choking. By turning my far peck into his arm it creates a much better angle and purer choke. To me this especially applies when I'm on my back because you don't have the knee on belly for leverage/to create the crank.

Just my personal preference though.

I'm willing to bet that it isn't your grip that's making the kill; it's the angle.

If you're getting finishes from the bottom without the figure 4 you're getting your hip on the ground and forcing driving pressure with your inside shoulder.

If you try to finish the arm triangle from bottom half guard while you're flat on your back the ONLY way you're gonna pull it off is with the figure 4 grip (and probably the lockdown as well).

Eddie's argument (which is apparently shared by the Mendes Brothers) is that if only the Figure 4 will work from an inferior position, then it is clearly the superior grip to use in a superior position. I agree.

[Eddie Bravo]

I'm willing to bet that it isn't your grip that's making the kill; it's the angle.

If you're getting finishes from the bottom without the figure 4 you're getting your hip on the ground and forcing driving pressure with your inside shoulder.

If you try to finish the arm triangle from bottom half guard while you're flat on your back the ONLY way you're gonna pull it off is with the figure 4 grip (and probably the lockdown as well).

Eddie's argument (which is apparently shared by the Mendes Brothers) is that if only the Figure 4 will work from an inferior position, then it is clearly the superior grip to use in a superior position. I agree.

Me and Rafa on the same page about the figure 4 grip? Nice! link to the interview?

It's simple, the gable grip version won't work when you are on bottom, only the figure 4 grip will. Now, think about what grip is best on top. You can do it, think. I've been doing arm triangles for over 15 years, that's my shit. I hit them from the bottom on the regular, I only use figure 4 grip plus the lockdown is crucial as well from the bottom