Kids and heel hooks

[Aaron Gustaveson]

Why were heel hooks illegal in all previous kids matches?

Im guessing, either due to convention. Which is not a good reason on its own.

Or because the past kids competitors didn't want them. This would have probably also been due, indirectly, to the convention of not teaching kids offense or defense, below the waist.

[Fabian Parker]

There are a lot of people here, talking about heel hooks, who have no knowledge of how to apply them or what even makes them work, for that matter. The idea that a heel hook doesn't hurt prior to injury is pure ignorance. I can guarantee you of that. To ban heel hooks because people think they are dangerous is both hypocritical and, in the end, detrimental to our sport as a whole. Its time to embrace the growth and educate our community.

One more thing, if you think seeing a little girl get her arm completely ripped backwards is more visually acceptable than seeing a little girls foot get compressed, then you have serious mental health issues. A kimura is just as devastating as a heel hook. The injury is actually more miserable to recover from as well. Please allow the educated folks to inform the masses.

Pretty much agree with this sentiment 100%.

I can see the point Craig was making about the public perception of EBI if kids are getting injured. I was also thinking putting someone to sleep looks way more violent to an untrained eye. The point that was mentioned about arm hyperextension is also true and for the few Judo tournaments I've seen (including kids divisions) that was a way more prominent issue since Judoka apply submissions very quickly in competition. Often to the point of not giving the opponent time to tap. This has not been a problem in the public perception of Judo.

However, I feel submission grappling will always be a special interest sport for the foreseeable future so why not just accept that and keep true to the spirit of EBI (i.e. Submissions only event which caters to the grappling community). Overall, it was an amazing event and I think as long as the competitors know the risks and agree to the rules then it is on them to train properly. Choosing not to tap is not an age issue I think.

With pain and the heelhook pretty much everyone I have applied it to feels pain in their ankle (even more so than an ankle lock) as well as tightness in their leg/knee.

[Chris Herzog]

It's not conceding to those who are wrong, it's about creating the most marketable JJ tournament possible. Girls getting carried off the mat is counter-productive to that goal.

So it would be completely acceptable to you if she was carried off is she had her shoulder dislocated with a kimura?

[Chris Herzog]

There are a lot of people here, talking about heel hooks, who have no knowledge of how to apply them or what even makes them work, for that matter. The idea that a heel hook doesn't hurt prior to injury is pure ignorance. I can guarantee you of that. To ban heel hooks because people think they are dangerous is both hypocritical and, in the end, detrimental to our sport as a whole. Its time to embrace the growth and educate our community.

One more thing, if you think seeing a little girl get her arm completely ripped backwards is more visually acceptable than seeing a little girls foot get compressed, then you have serious mental health issues. A kimura is just as devastating as a heel hook. The injury is actually more miserable to recover from as well. Please allow the educated folks to inform the masses.

Truth.

[Craig Murray]

So it would be completely acceptable to you if she was carried off is she had her shoulder dislocated with a kimura?

1. this has nothing to do with what's acceptable to me, you haven't been paying attention to what I've said. See what you're doing there? You know damn well I'm talking about the larger public, potential viewers of SpikeTV, yet you try to make it about me. Such a sneaky guy you are.
2. Oddly we've never had a problem with Kimuras, despite them being legal in all kids matches
3. First time HH is legal for kids, bam, injury. I'm sure that's just coincidence.

Professor Chris, why were heelhooks banned from all kids matches before EBI5, any idea?

[Craig Murray]

you have serious mental health issues.

Personal attacks are unnecessary Sean. Just because someone has an opinion different than yours you throw in some personal insults?

[Chris Herzog]

1. this has nothing to do with what's acceptable to me, you haven't been paying attention to what I've said. See what you're doing there? You know damn well I'm talking about the larger public, potential viewers of SpikeTV, yet you try to make it about me. Such a sneaky guy you are.
2. Oddly we've never had a problem with Kimuras, despite them being legal in all kids matches
3. First time HH is legal for kids, bam, injury. I'm sure that's just coincidence.

Professor Chris, why were heelhooks banned from all kids matches before EBI5, any idea?

1) No you haven't been paying attention. The larger public's perception is based on ignorance, and I don't accept their ignorance as an excuse. I'm not sneaky, I've obvious, you are just oblivious.
2) Who is "We", I've seen several kids fucked up from kimura's in tournaments, hang out in the Jiu Jitsu world more than 6 months, you'll see it to.
3) First time for EBI, not for grappling tournaments.
...and how the fuck do I know, I don't work for EBI. I'm assuming it changed because all partys agreed to it.

[Aaron Gustaveson]

1. this has nothing to do with what's acceptable to me, you haven't been paying attention to what I've said. See what you're doing there? You know damn well I'm talking about the larger public, potential viewers of SpikeTV, yet you try to make it about me. Such a sneaky guy you are.
2. Oddly we've never had a problem with Kimuras, despite them being legal in all kids matches
3. First time HH is legal for kids, bam, injury. I'm sure that's just coincidence.

Professor Chris, why were heelhooks banned from all kids matches before EBI5, any idea?

Seems to me that Eddie has never been one to concede what he thinks makes sense, to please people. And yet he is incredibly successful. Why would you think Eddie would want to sell out to grow the event?

Are you seriously saying that kids has never been hurt from kimuras?

You're asking why they were banned previously, as if you have a clever angle. Guess you didn't read my comment.

[Craig Murray]

1) No you haven't been paying attention. The larger public's perception is based on ignorance, and I don't accept their ignorance as an excuse. I'm not sneaky, I've obvious, you are just oblivious.
2) Who is "We", I've seen several kids fucked up from kimura's in tournaments, hang out in the Jiu Jitsu world more than 6 months, you'll see it to.
3) First time for EBI, not for grappling tournaments.
...and how the fuck do I know, I don't work for EBI. I'm assuming it changed because all partys agreed to it.

1. Unlike you I am considering the larger public's opinion, that was the point of my comment in the first place. I realize you think they are ignorant and I realize you don't care what they think. In most cases I agree with you. In the case of a promotion that's trying to get on TV, the public's ignorance is important... at least in my stupid little whitebelt opinion.
2. It's 12 months, not 6, but point taken. By "we" I was referring to those who watch, support, and hope to see EBI on TV at some point.
3. I didn't ask why it changed, I asked why they were banned in the first place. As far as why the fuck would you know, I'd say for starters you seem to know a lot about a lot... how the fuck am I supposed to know what you know and what you don't? Was an honest question.

[Craig Murray]

Seems to me that Eddie has never been one to concede what he thinks makes sense, to please people. And yet he is incredibly successful. Why would you think Eddie would want to sell out to grow the event?

Are you seriously saying that kids has never been hurt from kimuras?

You're asking why they were banned previously, as if you have a clever angle. Guess you didn't read my comment.

I did read your comment. First you said HH were banned because of convention, then you said Eddie doesn't follow convention. So... shrug. Sounded to me like you were guessing. I was asking Chris because I suspected he might actually know.

I also take exception to the idea that banning HH for kids is "selling out". That doesn't make any sense to me at all, especially since they were banned in all previous kids fights. You make it sounds like I'm suggesting people compete in a gi or something.

People resist the idea of removing them from kids fights like somehow having HH available to kids in EBI is critically important to EBI, to grappling, to the fate of humanity. Seems a little weird to me, to be honest. It's an entertainment product trying to get on TV and a large segment of the population thinks they are dangerous. The math is pretty easy to me, you simply remove them. Problem solved.

The danger of heelhooks is a very well documented dispute in the BJJ community. Why fuck around with such a controversial issue with respect to children, for the sake of "being right" or "not selling out"?