Ryan Hall on EBI

[NameLikeNoOther]

I guess there is only one way to settle it for sure ... he must compete in the next Absolute Division EBI.

[Aaron Gustaveson]

I think he means that it rewards the guy who might otherwise be unable to get the back, or that the process of getting to the back takes primacy over just being there. I think that's a valid point, but it's also worth noting that Ryan's long been against 10th Planet style. I recall on his triangles DVD where he made a long digression to call rubber guard "garbage" because it didn't pin the near shoulder or something like that. But then in one of his TUF fights he was playing Williams Guard, so it's hard to know what he really thinks.

Yes, but it rewards both people equally. If that's a big problem for someone, then they need to either improve their defense or offense in bad potions, or both. I cant think of a more perfect rule set for sport bjj, especially for entertainment.

[Princess Guillotine]

Yes, but it rewards both people equally. If that's a big problem for someone, then they need to either improve their defense or offense in bad potions, or both. I cant think of a more perfect rule set for sport bjj, especially for entertainment.

Not sure I agree that it rewards both people equally. I mean, was it really an equal reward for Eddie to be taken out of attacking a locked mounted triangle/armbar and then restarted defending a locked bicep slicer? I know Eddie also had his chance, but I think Geo benefited quite a bit more considering that he spent most of regulation time surviving. Not saying the rules are bad, just disagree with your characterization of them as "perfect."

[Aaron Gustaveson]

Not sure I agree that it rewards both people equally. I mean, was it really an equal reward for Eddie to be taken out of attacking a locked mounted triangle/armbar and then restarted defending a locked bicep slicer? I know Eddie also had his chance, but I think Geo benefited quite a bit more considering that he spent most of regulation time surviving. Not saying the rules are bad, just disagree with your characterization of them as "perfect."

That's not an issue with the format of OT, thats a problem of having a time limit. No time limit format has serious problems as a spectator sport. I never said they were "perfect". They are the best rules that Im aware of.

[Eddie Bravo]

ryan might be the most insane guard puller in MMA history

[Keith D]

Not sure I agree that it rewards both people equally. I mean, was it really an equal reward for Eddie to be taken out of attacking a locked mounted triangle/armbar and then restarted defending a locked bicep slicer? I know Eddie also had his chance, but I think Geo benefited quite a bit more considering that he spent most of regulation time surviving. Not saying the rules are bad, just disagree with your characterization of them as "perfect."

I actually agree with this a lot.. I don't think Eddie Cummings had Geo in a Triangle/Armbar though.. I believe he was attacking Geo's legs when regulation time ended... But I definately agree with what your saying though.. Eddie spent the whole match on offense.. then loses a coin toss, and gets put in a defensive position.. and gets Subbed first, so now not only does Eddie have to Sub Geo, he has to rush to do so... Even though both guys get a chance, they DO NOT benefit equally.

[Aaron Gustaveson]

I actually agree with this a lot.. I don't think Eddie Cummings had Geo in a Triangle/Armbar though.. I believe he was attacking Geo's legs when regulation time ended... But I definately agree with what your saying though.. Eddie spent the whole match on offense.. then loses a coin toss, and gets put in a defensive position.. and gets Subbed first, so now not only does Eddie have to Sub Geo, he has to rush to do so... Even though both guys get a chance, they DO NOT benefit equally.

So is it coin tosses that you consider unfair?

[Keith D]

So is it coin tosses that you consider unfair?

At times... If there is a situation when they're in a neutral position a coin toss would be necessary, like if reg. time ended in 50/50, or a scramble, or something. Otherwise, I would say that is a fairly accurate statement.. If you have to choose between back and spider web, I have no issue with that, but if regulation time ends and you are in an offensive position, you should get to pick position first..

[Aaron Gustaveson]

That's an intersting opinion. Why does it matter who goes on offense first? Let's say Eddie went first. He still has to submit Geo as fast as possible, or risk losing. If youre confident in your escapes, it may be a good strategy to defend first.

[Ben Eddy]

At times... If there is a situation when they're in a neutral position a coin toss would be necessary, like if reg. time ended in 50/50, or a scramble, or something. Otherwise, I would say that is a fairly accurate statement.. If you have to choose between back and spider web, I have no issue with that, but if regulation time ends and you are in an offensive position, you should get to pick position first..

I don't think it's that black and white on which is an advantage. As the person who goes second, you get to make a strategic decision based off how fast you were tapped. If I was tapped in under 45 seconds, I'm going to go with spiderweb. If however I was tapped in over a minute, I might choose the back depending on how good I am there. The back usually takes time to work and find the sub whereas spider web can be more of an all or nothing position and offer a quicker sub.

There is also levels of strategy for later rounds too. In the second and third rounds I think it might be an advantage to choose going second. You will get to change your strategy based off how well they have controlled you and also based off how well they have defended. For example, first round my opponent chooses my back and gets 3 minutes of control on me. I choose spider web in the hopes for the sub and lose it at 45 seconds. Second round my opponent chooses back again and he controls me for another 2 minutes. Now I know I'm at a 4 minute deficit. If I know I have good back control I could now choose to switch to the back in order to catch up on time or I could decide that I will not end up catching up on time and need to sell out on getting the sub.

You also need to take into account that "being forced into going for a fast sub" is NOT a disadvantage. That is your advantage. You now know for sure exactly how much time you have to work with. If it's only 45 seconds, you know you have to work fast and cannot spare any control time. However if you would of went first, you would not have had this information and might of just decided to go slow and controlled, therefore losing on time without even having the urgency you should of had if you had known you were going to be tapped in x seconds.

The main and really only advantage to going first is if you sub the guy, you get to know how long you need to survive for. So instead of trying to escape and possibly leave yourself open for an attack by doing so. You can just focus solely on surviving.

Now you are claiming that Geo in particular got an advantage by going first. However Geo escaped before the time was out. So he did not use his only advantage from going first (surviving until time ran out). He still attempted the escape and was successful. Also it's pretty key to keep in mind that it took Geo a long time to sub Eddie. Eddie knew he had over 3 minutes to find the sub and he knew he HAD to find the sub within that time. So he both had plenty of time to find a sub in a controlled and slow form as well as had the crucial piece of info which was knowing he must find the sub. If Eddie had gone first, he would not have had either of these bits of info.

So I don't think the choice of first or second is quite as simple as you make it out to be and I don't see the argument for Geo having gained an advantage given how his particular overtime rounds played out.