The war in Iraq is over THOUGHTS?

[Ryan Cook]

America might need to learn to say sorry.

How about lifting all the sanctions and working on opening lines of trade? Nothing dampens religious ferver and rampant extremism like soft living and consumerism. People are less inclined to make a habbit of plotting when they are fucking round on an Iphone or discussing deep international issues on a Jiu Jitsu forum at 2:58 in the morning.

Agreed. People tend towards peace (at least on a large scale). Governments are inherently violent and war bound.

[Daniel Patrick]

All the Republicans I talk to support the war. But they sure as hell won't join the forces.

Republicans hold a large majority in the armed services, with 57% of active military personnel and 66% of officers identified as Republican in 2003.

[ifreez]

No it didn't.

Best I could find on short notice.

http://thoriumpentoxide.blogspot.com/

Nobel Prize economist: "Finally, I want to turn to the macro-economic costs. First, I want to dispel a widespread misconception that wars are good for the economy—a misconception that arose from the role that World War II played in helping the US emerge from the Great Depression. "

[Kevin Green]

Now, that is scary chit! Not just the prison industrial complex and the idea of the scary 'other', whether it be cultural, or juvenile, or just for strategic control of society -- making people more afraid of being locked up by swelling prison ranks so they (citizens) stay within the law, it is all just rule by fear.

But, what more scary are the special interests that fund radical, bias media outlets, those that skew the truth for political gain. It's a clash between media ethics and the first amendment, the right to lie. Where the first amendment, whether a lie or truth, wins every time. Of course it's a slippery slope when it comes to slander, but when a news outlet specifically calls a section of its programming 'opinion' (under the disguise of news), all is fair game.

And about the mosque, I feel that before sept 11, no worries, after sept 11, big problems. One thing is for sure, we can no longer say, "they hate us for our freedoms".

My big issue w the mosque is that through history the Muslim culture has always built a mosque on land they have concured. So what message does that send, allowing it to happen near the site of the 911 attacks? Passes me off.

[Tim Elliott]

An unimaginable amount of seriously fucked up stuff has been done by various groups of Christians yet we dont consider Christianity as a whole to be bad.

People argue that there are some nasty things in the Koran. The same can be said of the Bible. The bulk of Muslims dont take the Koran 100% literally, just as the bulk of Christians dont stone people on a regular basis.

Marginal, religious nutcases are the problem. Not Islam, or any religion as a whole. If you vilify Islam as a whole instead of being more selective you play right into extremists hands.

Iv lived next door to a Mosque for two years. Never bothered me once. Iv lived next door to a Church for six weeks and the bloody organ practices are driving me mental.

[Kevin Green]

An unimaginable amount of seriously fucked up stuff has been done by various groups of Christians yet we dont consider Christianity as a whole to be bad.

People argue that there are some nasty things in the Koran. The same can be said of the Bible. The bulk of Muslims dont take the Koran 100% literally, just as the bulk of Christians dont stone people on a regular basis.

Marginal, religious nutcases are the problem. Not Islam, or any religion as a whole. If you vilify Islam as a whole instead of being more selective you play right into extremists hands.

Iv lived next door to a Mosque for two years. Never bothered me once. Iv lived next door to a Church for six weeks and the bloody organ practices are driving me mental.

agree. Extremeism is the key. I don't have any issue w a mosque or Islam. At its root, Islam is a very accepting religion. The guy running the mosque I'm ny was quoted as saying the US got what it deserved on 911. So the issue is what that mosque represents in that spot n what the motivation is. I lost family in 911 n friends n soldiers fighting in oef oif. I don't think the debate is over a mosque in general, its that mosque n what it says to those who go to that site to pay homage to their loved ones.
I don't disagree that every religion has its war n destruction n its extremeism....but a mosque near the 911 site is more symbolic of concurring a country then freedom of religion. We got what we deserved?? Really??
Do innocent people get killed in war, yes. We spend millions to build weapons in order to avoid that. We run campaigns to move civilians before we bomb an area. We go thru an approval process before those engagements. We get killed n shot from mosques n schools in the middle east because we aren't allowed to shoot at them n they know it.
They targeted a building w civilians women n children w a plane full of civilians. That's the difference. Mosques are great if religion is your thing.....that particular mosque n that guy....fuck them both

[Victor Tabeling]

My big issue w the mosque is that through history the Muslim culture has always built a mosque on land they have concured. So what message does that send, allowing it to happen near the site of the 911 attacks? Passes me off.

I'm not so sure dude, they've been building mosques in America for a long time now, and after 9/11 too. Why is one more in New York evidence to them that they've conquered us?

[John Roderick]

Ian, Kevin, et al;
To clarify a couple of my comments: first, I am well aware that our government has had and continues to have, many "shadow" or behind the scenes deals with other countries and what that influence is. The irony of supplanting a current regime, only to go to war with our "puppet" ruler at a later date is not lost on me. The U.S. and other countries throughout history have done the same thing. To generalize it as only the U.S. is inaccurate. I'm not saying what the U.S. has done is right, but let's not blind ourselves to the fact this has been going on throughout history. My point with what I stated was to say that there are direct correlations between Afghanistan and Iraq regarding terrorism. That's not to say that there isn't in Pakistan, Iran, or other countries. Unfortunatly, with "politics", it's often thought that the "lesser of two evils (a paraphrase, I don't mean to insinuate that another country is "evil") " or "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" are good alternatives in politics. It is what it is, it's not always right, and it's not perfect. So, please: don't just assume I'm a blind American Patriot or unaware. In a forum such as this, and especially in writing, it's often difficult to be as succinct as one would like, or get an accurate account. I'm aware that all of our friends here from other countries have a decidedly different perspective than we may.

Regarding the education: I'm well aware of the fallacy of thinking that we need to educate others to our way of thinking. Throughout history, whether with the colonization of America, the Conquest of South America, colonization of India, etc; it has been the hubris of the west (i.e: colonizing Europeans) to think that we have to bring "savages" around to our way of thinking. Before I continue, I'd like to point out that archeological and anthropological evidence is now showing that, essentially, there are NO indigenous peoples. Everyone migrated from somewhere. Having said that, all I meant was that in any country, in any system of government, ALL people have a right to learn to read. To learn arithmetic. To learn their countries history. To have a solid infrastructure. Clean water. Food. A safe place to call home. We could certainly have helped, and the coalition, the U.S., Europe, ANY country associated with the efforts in Iraq and the Middle East, have certainly failed the people of Iraq by not doing a proper job and having a plan for helping them to rebuild their country. Is it so wrong to help them build schools or hospitals? That was more of my point. Additionally, by not having access to the outside world in an open manner, not having good information or education, it will be very difficult to change their view of the west and the U.S. in particular. The doctrines they follow are old and constantly reinforced (yes, much like the west's propaganda and media misinformation).
Lastly, I have many friends and family from abroad. From diverse ethnic and cultural backgrounds: Poland, Germany, Portugal, India, The Filipines, The U.K. Very diverse points of view. Things are changing quite quickly in India for example as they quickly are becoming technological epicenters of the world. Much of their cultural and world view is evolving quickly for example.
It's all part of growth and change. We as a culture, should certainly do more to assist in the infrastructure rebuild of Iraq.

In closing: I'm sorry for placing so many diverse ideas in one post. Stream of thought first thing in the morning with office chaos around me. However, I'm very pleased with the intelligent and insightful discourse of this thread. This is what gets ideas moving.

[Kevin Green]

I'm not so sure dude, they've been building mosques in America for a long time now, and after 9/11 too. Why is one more in New York evidence to them that they've conquered us?

In any muslim conflict they have built a mosque on concured land...its proximity to the 911 site, coincidence? No...

Look up what the guy who put in for the spot said about us and the 911 attackes...terrorism is very symbolic bro. Thats why they picked that building in the first place. Mass casualties and it represented the Western Cultures ideology of capitilism. Mosques on concured land is standard - of all the places in the world why would this guy need to put it there??

like I said, its not about mosques its about that mosque in that spot...whats the point?

[John Roderick]

Oh, and regarding the Mosque in NYC: I am not opposed to the building of a Mosque, and I'm not that familiar with the rules governing locations of Mosques in the Muslim faith. I will say this: it is a right under the constitution to have freedom of religion and the builder if they follow the law and rules of the NY building code, can build where they wish. However, I think in the eyes of the U.S. public, its more a matter of good taste. I don't think it's in good taste to build it there. To me, it would be like building a church or American Embassy right on Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Not wrong per se, just not in good taste.