Olympic TKD

[frank-theman-james]

And guys, not arguing either. I hold a blackbelt in gojushorin and a brown belt in Parker kenpo, both of which utilize the kicks found in tkd. And after twenty five years of training, I'm kinda set in my ways. Lol. Just believe that good form will bring maximum power. Practice what you love and be the best you can be at it.

[Tim Elliott]

I'm back on an iPhone so I'm going to be deep and say the differences between disciplines are in our heads and only time limits what we can do. In other words, it's all good stuff and I wish I had time to perfect it all.

[frank-theman-james]

Agreed. Good debate and discussion

[Peter Hirt]

"There are many different paths up to the top of the Mountain; but once you're there -all of the views are the same."

-This was my Korean TKD Master speaking about the differences between stytles of Martial Arts. I love the quote; and it seemed appropriate to share here in this thread. Its all about generating "maximum power", right? Everyone is built, moves, thinks, reacts... differently and so it seems only natural that we'd all have different ways of generating, harnessing and focusing power.

For me, I stumbled upon a technique which helped crystalize things for me. I was trying to experiment with "distance" late one night, and ended up taking a Front Stance with my lead foot about 12" away from a wall -with just enough room to hold a lunge punch in place. I started thinking about the very moment of impact with regards to my body's "structure" and I became acutely aware of the relationship between: 1) The power of my punch 2) the "driving force" on my back leg and 3) the reduction of weight on my front leg. The harder my fist "pushed" against the wall, the stonger my back leg drove into the ground, and the less weight there was on my front leg (almost to the point of picking it up).

Try puching a bag as hard as you can standing in front of it balanced on one foot. There will never be any power! The SAME principle applies with a kick too; but it is immensely complicated by having to maintain total balance, support, and driving power with a single leg!!

Any spinning kick attempts to replace a portion of the "driving" support force behind the kick with momentum generated by body movement -which CAN be very powerful. Jump spinning kicks replace ALL of the "driving" support force with body momentum -and so technique and timing have to be 100% in order to generate real power.

But here's the trick: If you had to stop 1" before the target, and then continue -how much of the original momentum could you generate again? People who are good at turning their hips over and extending their legs with "snap" can generate a fair amount of it back. Combine that with a good "power train structure" (stance at the moment of impact) -and BAM! There's a great kick in real time, with a full range of motion and at full speed.

I just don't see many MMA guys able to do this well. I don't think its a problem of the styles that are coming in as much as the practitioner's themselves. The typical MMA fighter seems to study Martial Art techniques as if the different moves were different Owner Manuals for some electronic device; if they read it once and understand it, they should be able to do it. I tell my TKD students all the time that they can't just "know" a technique in their head. Could you read a book or two about back flips, and then go try one successfully? No way! You're body has to learn it by trying it out a couple 1,000 times.

But I've never bought into "this" style over "that" either. Even in our own TKD Association there is so much variation... All different paths up to the top of the Mountain!

[frank-theman-james]

"There are many different paths up to the top of the Mountain; but once you're there -all of the views are the same."

-This was my Korean TKD Master speaking about the differences between stytles of Martial Arts. I love the quote; and it seemed appropriate to share here in this thread. Its all about generating "maximum power", right? Everyone is built, moves, thinks, reacts... differently and so it seems only natural that we'd all have different ways of generating, harnessing and focusing power.

For me, I stumbled upon a technique which helped crystalize things for me. I was trying to experiment with "distance" late one night, and ended up taking a Front Stance with my lead foot about 12" away from a wall -with just enough room to hold a lunge punch in place. I started thinking about the very moment of impact with regards to my body's "structure" and I became acutely aware of the relationship between: 1) The power of my punch 2) the "driving force" on my back leg and 3) the reduction of weight on my front leg. The harder my fist "pushed" against the wall, the stonger my back leg drove into the ground, and the less weight there was on my front leg (almost to the point of picking it up).

Try puching a bag as hard as you can standing in front of it balanced on one foot. There will never be any power! The SAME principle applies with a kick too; but it is immensely complicated by having to maintain total balance, support, and driving power with a single leg!!

Any spinning kick attempts to replace a portion of the "driving" support force behind the kick with momentum generated by body movement -which CAN be very powerful. Jump spinning kicks replace ALL of the "driving" support force with body momentum -and so technique and timing have to be 100% in order to generate real power.

But here's the trick: If you had to stop 1" before the target, and then continue -how much of the original momentum could you generate again? People who are good at turning their hips over and extending their legs with "snap" can generate a fair amount of it back. Combine that with a good "power train structure" (stance at the moment of impact) -and BAM! There's a great kick in real time, with a full range of motion and at full speed.

I just don't see many MMA guys able to do this well. I don't think its a problem of the styles that are coming in as much as the practitioner's themselves. The typical MMA fighter seems to study Martial Art techniques as if the different moves were different Owner Manuals for some electronic device; if they read it once and understand it, they should be able to do it. I tell my TKD students all the time that they can't just "know" a technique in their head. Could you read a book or two about back flips, and then go try one successfully? No way! You're body has to learn it by trying it out a couple 1,000 times.

But I've never bought into "this" style over "that" either. Even in our own TKD Association there is so much variation... All different paths up to the top of the Mountain!

Your way with words is excellent grasshopper, lol. But you couldn't be more dead on as to my original posts in this thread. I am on complete agreement with your statement about today's mma fighter's and their approach to drilling proper technique over and over to be not just good but great. I once had a student who hated taking my stand-up class, because week after week, I had him do back leg round kicks for the entire hour of technique class. Others were learning other things, but o made him keep doing the same thing over and over. He would ask me why, and I would say, when you can do it right with out telegraphing me your intentions, then I'll show you something else. He told me later how much he hated me, but he could also throw a blackleg round kick better than anyone else in class

[Tim Elliott]

You will see Yodsaenklai cruising, and then his oponent will throw an elbow. A declaration of war, normally to be answered with return elbows. He doesn't. He just winds the intensity of that kick up a little. You will see in some of his fights it goes from cruising to serious, he sinks that kick into an arm or the body and the guy just wilts. A couple of his involve one elbow from his oponent and three of his kicks later the fights over.

A good kick or a knee should be something apauling. Something that slices through adrenalin and endorphins and turns fight to flight. MMA is wide open to kicks like that, but you don't see them often.

Iv been kicked by my trainer, who fights pro in Thailand when he's not injured (G Rae) when he was still recovering from surgery. His kick (the one I'm talking about) left the bones in my forearms aching for two days and that was through heavy Thai pads. You would want to be light on your feet to take one of Mr Rogans side kicks on a belly pad!

[Jason Mallory]

Here is the footage of Joe doing a spinning side kick. Pretty impressive for a guy who hasn't competed in TKD in 20 years.

[stlnl]

For the record I never based any power theories on videos. Rather I based them on training Karate (with a former PKA kickboxer, who of course believed in hitting hard) and stayed with it for years (about 5) and then switched over and saw a very noticable increase in power once I learned the new way to kick.

So any opinion I have, is based on a long vigorous exposure to BOTH ways of doing it.

[Jason Mallory]

For the record I never based any power theories on videos. Rather I based them on training Karate (with a former PKA kickboxer, who of course believed in hitting hard) and stayed with it for years (about 5) and then switched over and saw a very noticable increase in power once I learned the new way to kick.

So any opinion I have, is based on a long vigorous exposure to BOTH ways of doing it.

Far enough. Have you ever trained with a world class TKD guy like Han Won Lee and learned his theories of generating power in kicks ?

[Jason Mallory]

As someone on this thread said, the individuals ability is more important than the style. Unfortunately with TKD there are countless McDojo's out there. It is hard to find world class TKD instruction. I was lucky to be able to train with Han Won Lee. He was the only guy of that caliber in the whole state of Michigan.