is jiujitsu dying in MMA?

[Calan Ownhouse]

I have had multiple posts like this on MMA sites saying : "10thPJJ will counter wrestling in it's 'laynpray' form, and make for a much more exciting ground game. When guys start learning 10pjj properly - Jiu Jitsu will rule mma again"
That is my opinion. I see it as a way to force your Jits on your enemy.
HOW many times did all of you think whilst watching Pettis - CONTROL THE POSTURE! I was pretty much screaming at my screen. Just breaking him down and simple mission control for a few seconds could have won him that fight.
Look I'm not saying it's perfect as rubber guarding guys like Rampage will get your neck broken but it really has the potential to eliminate the boringness of the ground game we see in MMA today.

[RichardC]

Wrestling is definitely overshadowing jiu-jitsu w/ the recent successes of wrestlers... Brock Lesnar (v Mir), Cain Velasquez, Guida, Davis, Bader, Maynard, Edgar, etc. But that doesn't mean jiu-jitsu isn't relevant. It has to adapt to an entirely new set of problems.

Since wrestlers often end up in half guard and stall, I think MMA guys need to hone their half guard games to keep the flow of the fight moving, as well as explore new positions like deep half, de la riva, leg-lacing, etc. A lot of people dismiss these positions as useless in MMA, but when executed properly, they would be applicable just the same. It's the same reason that you don't see people throwing scissor takedowns in MMA... It's because everyone's practicing double-legs instead, even though a scissor would certainly work. They just require live-action practice like anything else.

[AndyK5]

The reason is in its current form, wrestling moves are being judged like strikes. If you pull them off individually you still get points for them even if in the end they did not achieve a K.O. Examples of such are clinch, pressing against the cage, different takedowns, getting top position from scramble etc.. BJJ gets very little almost 0 points for its moves. The only good outcome from BJJ is either getting the submission or preventing your face getting smashed in while losing a decision. Therefore a wrestler will always, pay attention to the word "always", win the decision against a BJJ guy. Since decisions are a huge part of MMA winning streaks, wrestling takes the center stage in these days.

[Michael Sioda]

I think that JJ took a major unintended hit when the UFC designed the cage & rules. It took a while for wrestlers to elevate the use of the cage & rules to a science - but once the formula was out there all of the elite wrestlers aspiring to fight in the UFC had a road map to follow.

Wrestlers naturally thrive in the cage but can struggle in the ring. Having a cage to jam your opponent into really smothers the bottom game. It also makes it easier to keep the clinch game going - a la the patented Guida dick-hug (at the waist, pushing against the cage if the shot fails, eventually he might get you down). Cage specific techniques also emphasize raw power & strength (not patience & long term strategy). This is why wrestlers were less effective in Pride & one of the reasons why Aoki struggled against Melendez in Strikeforce.

In Pride ground-fighters caught in the ropes just start over in the middle. It's more like fighting in a giant field. Without anything to get jammed up against sweeps become much more dangerous & mobility off of your back is much more effective.

Master Eddie is always talking about percentages. In the cage wrestling techniques all get +10% success rate, JJ takes a -10% hit. That is a 20% swing. Add to that rounds/time limits & you lose the ability to wait it out in the guard until the bigger/stronger opponent tires or makes a mistake (-10% for guard players). Finally, add to that the obscene judging bias for take-downs & top guard position (even when no real damage is done) & you have a recipe that greatly downplays the real world effectiveness of JJ.

Now I'm not saying that cage fighting is unrealistic - many fights happen in a bar/ally/whatever where there are corners & immovable objects to pin your opponent against while delivering GnP. But I do think this explains why JJ has been suffering more & more as the elite wrestler learns to use the cage environment & wrestler-friendly rules to advantage.

[AJ Camacho]

I have had multiple posts like this on MMA sites saying : "10thPJJ will counter wrestling in it's 'laynpray' form, and make for a much more exciting ground game. When guys start learning 10pjj properly - Jiu Jitsu will rule mma again"
That is my opinion. I see it as a way to force your Jits on your enemy.
HOW many times did all of you think whilst watching Pettis - CONTROL THE POSTURE! I was pretty much screaming at my screen. Just breaking him down and simple mission control for a few seconds could have won him that fight.
Look I'm not saying it's perfect as rubber guarding guys like Rampage will get your neck broken but it really has the potential to eliminate the boringness of the ground game we see in MMA today.

Well, it's not just 10th Planet.. basically any guard that exploits an overhook has the ability to catch a wrestler who prefers to pass or attack the guard with a low posture. Which is why it is even more baffling that you see guys still using push pull wrist control triangle setups in MMA. Personally, I think it's nuts since if you lose control of one wrist, the fist attached to that wrist will be flying towards your head.

I mean every competent BJJ school/instructor has some overhook/overwrap setups in their game. Why they don't use them on opponents that just give you their posture is a mystery to me. Obviously there's an element of "easier said than done" in play but I don't even see guys grabbing the overhook when the arm is down. I'm sure you guys have rolled with non 10th Planet guys, people just give up the overhook all day.

[Robert Sevigny]

the saddest part is when people pin you against the cage, but i understand its YOUR responsibility to get up and out, but when you only have one-side to work with it makes your bjj alot harder to deal with

[MikeSnowdon]

To think of mixed martial artists as, well, artists - and to thus to think of individual martial arts styles as art forms (which they are, wrestling included) - it stands to reason that artists in a set period of time will favour one form over the other.

If jiu-jitsu is currently being overshadowed by wrestling, that's not to say that it's dying. It's just one of many colours on the ever-changing, constantly growing canvas that is MMA. D'oh, this explanation seemed much clearer in than in print!

I'll also throw some crude stats into the equation - which actually don't conclude this discussion one way or another but are interesting nonetheless:

According to Sherdog's fight finder out of the 78 (or so) UFC fights that have taken place in 2011, 14 of them ended in submission victories; mainly triangles and chokes - as well as that delightful Twister that you may have heard about ;-)

[MikeSnowdon]

*edit*

"D'oh, this explanation seemed much clearer in than in print!" should read:

D'oh, this explanation seemed much clearer in my head than in print! :-)

[David Rosado]

JJ isn't dying....it's just not evolving to where it should be. I see little signs here and there. I mean Fabio Maldonado pulled off a friggin deep half guard sweep in MMA!!! My jaw dropped cuz I always thought deep half was suicide in MMA, but he pulled it off. It shows me that JJ is evolving, it just hasn't solved the puzzle of the smothering wrestler.

JJ in MMA just needs to adapt. Yeah a part of it is learning wrestling. But not to wrestle. To counter it.

Example: Clay Guida's base is wrestling. He had to learn boxing. Why? So he can be more aware of opponent's foot work and get a better sense of when they would strike so he could avoid it and play HIS game. He learned BJJ to avoid submissions so he could play HIS game.

See what I'm saying? It's all about learning so that you can play your game. It would be foolish for a guy who has rudimentary boxing skills to try and box with a boxer. Likewise, it'd be foolish for a BJJ guy to try and wrestler an NCAA wrestler. No, you gotta learn his game to avoid it and play YOUR game.

[David Rosado]

IMO, as long as the UFC rules stand as they are, BJJ guys shouldn't even be training subs from the bottom. They should all be sweep masters. I mean, seriously, you know how tough it is to land a sub WITHOUT punches...imagine WITH punches! Anderson couldn't do it in 3. He needed 5! Seriously, being on the bottom is horrible in the eyes of the judges. As a matter of fact, I saw some MMA fights in PA a few months back and saw guys with excellent JJ lose, despite being in control the whole time, basically because they were on their back.....even though they were controlling and firing off sub attempt after sub attempt.

I'm telling you, IMO, the next evolution of BJJ in MMA needs to be a ridiculous sweep/reversal game. Dudes need to reverse and work on a killer top game. RG is great and superior for setting up submissions....but as long as you're on bottom, with these rules, you're losing. So until that changes, dudes need to be sweep masters.