London... Did it really have to go?

[Kevin Bergdorf]

The guys I have seen teaching and using it locally have modified it so significantly that I wouldn't call that iteration of the position London, it's more like London Lockdown, meaning that the path is:

mission control-> zombie-> London->close the guard->fully extend the legs and pinch the knees like you would in Lockdown.

It turns the opponent at a 90 angle from your body. From there the hand under the leg remains latched on to the opponent's shoulder and the free hand pushes on the face (dare I call that London Heisman?) or grabs the opponent's outside hand (London Pyramid?).

And yeah, the names I am making up are for descriptive purposes only.

[David Rosado]

I agree with the sentiment that there are better options out there but I believe it still holds some value. I know Eddie said its gone from the system but I don't think it really will ever just leave. More so discouraged from use since you have all the Chill Dog side options.

Oh for sure man. When I say better options, I'm specifically referring to the RG pathways. The RG is generally mission control leg up, other foot on the hip. If you rock london with the foot on the hip, it's no good. You get passed on the London side easy. Hugging the knee removes the need for London. And the foot on the hip plays a major role in a number of different transitions. So while you can play RG with mission control leg up and the other leg around the back (a habit I have), you lose a lot of options in the RG system by not having that foot on the hip.

Now if you wanna play london with a closed guard to help get your legs higher for omos and gogos and triangles, it's proven to work. But then you'd be playing sort of a different game than what's currently defined as the RG system.


All that said, the beauty of BJJ and what brought me back to it was evolution. Who knows, maybe London will make a comeback as a supplemental pathway. But in the end, london works.

[Kevin Bergdorf]

All that said, the beauty of BJJ and what brought me back to it was evolution. Who knows, maybe London will make a comeback as a supplemental pathway. But in the end, london works.

London AND karate!

[DanConway]

I remember at the midwest training camp eddie said London was starting to come up again and might find its way back in to the system, or something like that. I don't remember exactly, it's been awhile ;]

[David Rosado]

The guys I have seen teaching and using it locally have modified it so significantly that I wouldn't call that iteration of the position London, it's more like London Lockdown, meaning that the path is:

mission control-> zombie-> London->close the guard->fully extend the legs and pinch the knees like you would in Lockdown.

It turns the opponent at a 90 angle from your body. From there the hand under the leg remains latched on to the opponent's shoulder and the free hand pushes on the face (dare I call that London Heisman?) or grabs the opponent's outside hand (London Pyramid?).

And yeah, the names I am making up are for descriptive purposes only.

That sounds dope. You should post a video. Hahaha. But seriously, that sounds pretty cool. I'm just a lazy player. Like, I rarely ever ever ever zombie. I'm all about path of least resistance. And my duda sucks cuz I smash my balls a lot so I dont go to that very often. So I like to get the hand to the mat first and go straight to new york. But when it comes to london, I like to use it to clear the head. I lose new york and get passed a lot by going newyork>clear the head. I feel like a closed guard with London keeps the guy in place while letting me get my elbow across easier. Lower risk for me...and then when I clear the head, I go straight to chill dog.

So the way I like to play is all out of order. I go: break posture/get hand to the mat> new york> london+closed guard (and I gable grip behind the head to keep things tight)> clear the head> clear the head> chill dog> and from there I play whatever opens up. Honestly, if I can't get the hand to the mat, 9/10 I won't even pursue the RG path. I'll just threaten with flower sweep guard attacks. That's pretty much all I got from closed. It's either RG, flower, or pump and I just keeps switching back and forth until something sticks.

[David Rosado]

I remember at the midwest training camp eddie said London was starting to come up again and might find its way back in to the system, or something like that. I don't remember exactly, it's been awhile ;]

That would be dope. Then maybe I won't feel guilty about my bad habits.

[Kevin Bergdorf]

That sounds dope. You should post a video. Hahaha. But seriously, that sounds pretty cool. I'm just a lazy player. Like, I rarely ever ever ever zombie. I'm all about path of least resistance. And my duda sucks cuz I smash my balls a lot so I dont go to that very often. So I like to get the hand to the mat first and go straight to new york. But when it comes to london, I like to use it to clear the head. I lose new york and get passed a lot by going newyork>clear the head. I feel like a closed guard with London keeps the guy in place while letting me get my elbow across easier. Lower risk for me...and then when I clear the head, I go straight to chill dog.


So the way I like to play is all out of order. I go: break posture/get hand to the mat> new york> london+closed guard (and I gable grip behind the head to keep things tight)> clear the head> clear the head> chill dog> and from there I play whatever opens up. Honestly, if I can't get the hand to the mat, 9/10 I won't even pursue the RG path. I'll just threaten with flower sweep guard attacks. That's pretty much all I got from closed. It's either RG, flower, or pump and I just keeps switching back and forth until something sticks.

+1 for James O'Brien reference
+1 for path of least resistance jj
+1 for all of the super useful details

[Ryan Brick]

Can you turn his cart wheel escape into anything? Like attack the knee after or a sweep?

If you could counter it into something it could just be a pathway, dude will sit there or cartwheel over so you know that everytime you have to react the same way to his pass

Ive never really tried playing london because when i started learning rubber guard it was already considered weak. Im guess it cannot be turned into anything which is why its cut. At the point he steps over both hands and your leg are all commited to doing the same thing where as anything else in rubber guard you kind have a hand free to work.

Maybe zog knows how to counter it with a leg lock or something else that Eddie doesnt use often so he doesnt see it as an option?

Just my thoughts, it would be nice to have that as an option to avoid strikes

[Kevin Bergdorf]

Can you turn his cart wheel escape into anything? Like attack the knee after or a sweep?

If you could counter it into something it could just be a pathway, dude will sit there or cartwheel over so you know that everytime you have to react the same way to his pass

Ive never really tried playing london because when i started learning rubber guard it was already considered weak. Im guess it cannot be turned into anything which is why its cut. At the point he steps over both hands and your leg are all commited to doing the same thing where as anything else in rubber guard you kind have a hand free to work.

Maybe zog knows how to counter it with a leg lock or something else that Eddie doesnt use often so he doesnt see it as an option?

Just my thoughts, it would be nice to have that as an option to avoid strikes

Yes- check this out. Shawn Williams shows the counter to the cartwheel.

[Ryan Brick]

Yes- check this out. Shawn Williams shows the counter to the cartwheel.

If you got good at that single it could still work well, you go from the bottom not getting hit maybe land some strikes he spins you get the single and get on top or use it to stand. That would score big points in mma.

But if you miss it you get smashed...