I wanna know what you guys think about this video

[Chris Herzog]

Its seems that when people apply leg-locks, they often substitute good position before submission for hard, fast application. We see rotating leg-locks applied this way often but almost never see someone trying like hell to break someones arm with an armbar by using violent sudden actions vs acquiring good position and then applying the sub gradually.

I mention this before the start of every leg lock seminar I teach. To be honest I don't think he cranked it all that ballisticlly and was working on it for awhile, 100% fail on the narrators part to respond. All he is doing is a foot flex, from a calf crush'ish type position.

[Aaron Gustaveson]

Im not saying that I can tell how suddenly/violently he applied the sub in this case. Im wondering if you can (say you were a bad person) apply subs like an armbar with the intention of breaking the arm vs a slower application. Ive never seen anyone try to suddenly and forcefully apply an upper body sub with the intention of causing damage before the opnt could tap.

How did this sub work? Was it applying stress to the ankle similarly to how a straight ankle lock would?

[David Rosado]

It was twisting like a toe hold. Think "vaporizer." The vaporizer has a calf crush, but a good deal of the torque is actually on the ankle.

I watch a looooooot of youtube. I can tell you I've seen a good deal of guys crank upper body subs. More than leg locks.

As far as guys "often" cranking lower body subs hard and fast, again, I can't agree with you. I watch a lot of tourney footage, and I can only think of a handful of video where the guy cranked a toe hold too fast. Watch ADCC which has a lot of heel hook finishes. You don't see a lot of full blast heel hooking. I think Palhares is the only one who really does.

I think what gives you that impression is that guys tap late. Like I mentioned, when you get armbarred, you get near instant pain that makes you instinctively tap. Legs don't react the same way. If I apply 10% pressure on your locked elbow or shoulder, you feel pain. If I apply 10% pressure on a kneebar or toe hold, you just feel the pressure. It feels like you can let it flex a bit further. So what happens is that guys crank harder because they have a fully locked on sub, with no tap. And then the person taps too late because they didn't respect the warning signs.

[Aaron Gustaveson]

Weird it was twisting but it snapped his ankle? Was it inward or outward rotation?

Well upper body subs are still far more common ,so the number of times you see guys applying them roughly is going to be higher but in terms of the proportions of sub attempt that are applied in this manner, I feel like you see guys that dont understand leg locks attempting to make up for bad position with dramatic/fast application. If Im understanding Zog agrees with this.

I admit this is not a problem in higher levels.

Great point re: people tapping late to leg-lock due to lack of pain before damage occurs, Im aware of this of course but imo that is a good reason we should go for establishing good position and applying them like a gentleman even in comp.

Again, I personally cant see what happened in this vid, so I'll believe Zogs interpretation.

[David Rosado]

True point about upper body being more common. And yeah, twisting like a toe hold. Toe holds snap ankles. Not sure what you mean by inward or outward. But basically think of how you torque a toe hold, and you have your answer.

Your rephrasing of your original point makes more sense to me now. yeah, I can agree with you on that. Guys who don't know much about leg locks do crank faster due to lack of proper positioning.

In the video, the guy really did have good position and was applying slow controlled pressure. But the narrator really thought his 65% complete kimura/armbar was better than his opponent's 90% available crank. He underestimated the effectiveness of the uncommon sub, over estimated how deep his own sub was, overestimated how flexible his ankle was (since he wasn't giving proper defense) and he paid the price. Can't call someone else a douche for your own mistakes.

It's happened to me. Brandon McCaghren taught me a valuable lesson. Heel hook beats everything. I latched on a texas clover leaf well before he grabbed an inverted heel hook. I though my sub would win first because I got it first. Nope. Knee popped. I'm lucky that it was just like cartilage like when you crack your knuckles, but boy did I learn my lesson. Brandon is one of my favorite people. He's no where near a douche. I'm the one who should've tapped. I'm a white belt who made a white belt mistake. The guy in the video is a higher rank than I am. IMO, he should've known better. He needs to accept his mistake, not complain about how he got beat by a move he didn't understand.

[VJ Bella]

Sounds like your typical dude that doesn't train leglocks and gets caught before he even knew he was in danger. If you dont train leglocks dont do tournaments where they are legal. Stick to IBJJF. Thats my advice. I mean he was trying to hyperextend this shoulder with a kimura (that wasnt there) and then crys like a baby when dude counters with a foot flex? An did he say the guy didnt even care that he hurt me? Its a tournament...man up.

[Chris Herzog]

I agree with almost all of what David said except 2 things:

1) That wasn't a twisting leg lock, it was a straight foot flex, he had the foot in the crook of his elbow pit and the foot was flexed (with the toes pointed) so the damage was likely the tendons on the top of the foot and top outside of the ankle.

2) Brandon McCaghren is a huge douche.

[Kurzy]

lol

[Eric Schuettenberg]

If you gonna compete wit out da Gi you better know your leg locks and how to defend them

[David Rosado]

I agree with almost all of what David said except 2 things:

1) That wasn't a twisting leg lock, it was a straight foot flex, he had the foot in the crook of his elbow pit and the foot was flexed (with the toes pointed) so the damage was likely the tendons on the top of the foot and top outside of the ankle.

2) Brandon McCaghren is a huge douche.

1. Oh ok. Gotcha. I was thinking vaporizer when it was more foot flex. Got it.

2. LMAO.