Canadian Gun Owners

[Aaron Gustaveson]

Stats show that violent guncrimes happen more in areas with harsher gun control laws. Crimials don';t follow laws, and when they know teh public at large is unarmed, it's a free for all.

States that encourage open or concealed carry have lower gun crime rates. There is no arguement.

It seems like you are talking to me but you are asking me to "show that violent guncrimes happen more in areas with harsher gun control laws" which is not only, not something i claimed but a point in opposition to my opinion?

"Criminals dont follow laws" Ok that's addressable. You are right, in a sense, of course because by definition a criminal is someone who has violated at lest one law. This is the classic "if guns are outlawed only outlaws will own guns" rhetoric. I admit it is a powerful sounding statement with a ring of "simple man" logic. You dont have to think much about the implications of extending this line of reasoning before you see that it falls apart.

You see the implications are that laws are 100% ineffective as long as any number of people violate them. Basically laws do not deter crime and all laws are pointless other than to punish those who violate them.

In another way it is true, in countries with better gun control laws, mostly criminals (violent habitual criminals, not those that are criminals only via owning the weapon) have non-hunting type guns. Also MANY fewer innocent people are killed by those guns.

States that have (non really encourage because the cops want to be the only ones with the guns) open or concealed carry have lower gun crime rates.

I would believe this to be true on first thought as well but only because those states have lower population densities and are more rural. Thing is that if you compare Brady score for gun laws for each state to the per capita number of gun crimes or gun murders, this is not the case. I didn't run a statistical test to verify it but just looking at the data you can see it. I dont necessarily think brady laws are the right way to handle the situation either.

[Kurzy]

I wasn't talking to you. I was merely stating that States that encourage open carry or CCW have lower gun crime rates.

[Gray]

Australia got rid of guns, seems like they should have amazingly high rates of gun violence.

[Kurzy]

Australia got rid of guns, seems like they should have amazingly high rates of gun violence.

http://www.worldpublicunion.org/2013...ime-rates.html

[Gray]

I like how that article completely omits their record of zero mass shootings since the ban and also glazes over that overall homicide has declined. Add in that you are fifteen times more likely to be a victim of gun violence in America (per capita) , despite only one fifth of Australia's guns being removed from the street from the buyback. Also most Australians are absolutely fine with the ban, I don't know where this stat that they feel helpless came from.

I would personally give up my personal firearms if it completely eradicated the chance of a school being shot up.

That article also uses way too many anger points and opinions for good journalism, but that's just my opinion

[Aaron Gustaveson]

Gary, were all friends here and this is a sensitive topic. David Rosado and Kurzy are two of my favorite regular posters. I know none of us are particularly sensitive but I feel like this topic requires a cool tone.

I understand how its hard to address an article like that with a serious tone and not feel condescending. Kurzy, do you feel that article is a reliable source, can the figures be checked or are there any source they provide that im not seeing? Without looking into it the figures seem so extreme as to be ridiculous those number are more indicative of a war than a change in gun laws.

[Jonathan Wylie]

Can you clarify your position Aaron, what is it you see to be the problem hand guns specifically, and what is your proposed solution?

[Gray]

I don't think I was being condescending at all, sorry if I was. It is a hot topic, that is definitely very polarizing.

As for my conspiracy theories of the day, I don't think the feds will make any leeway know the gun laws. They will just trot it out to stir up media frenzies when they need to cover up their destruction of our first and fourth ammendment rights.

[David Rosado]

Kurzy, I got it off another message board but that person hasn't listed their source yet.

Also areas with high registered gun ownership is not rural. Not all of Texas is rural. Not all of New Hampshire is rural. Not all of New York State is rural. And yet, in areas with higher gun ownership, there's less gun crime where areas with the strictest gun control have the highest rate.

Responsible gun ownership is good.

Yes, guns are more accessible in the US. So more criminals have guns. I don't see how the solution would be to disarm citizens. If we ban guns, criminals just have life easier. Cops don't protect. They respond. They show up to victims homes after they're victims. That's not good. Would I prefer guns didn't exist? Sure. Then we could knife each other and have that banned. Then we'll use stones and clubs. Then those will be banned. Then we'll stomp each other, then legs will be banned. Lol.

[Aaron Gustaveson]

Can you clarify your position Aaron, what is it you see to be the problem hand guns specifically, and what is your proposed solution?

I have less of a problem with handguns than "assault rifles" (they way the define assault rifles is kind of silly) The problem with handguns (reason so many innocent people are murdered with them) is their concealability and capacity. To me the biggest drawback of having a society with so many handguns, is that it justifies cops carrying them.

Truthfully the crux of my concern is that the majority of our country is either mentally unstable or simply stupid as fuck. If everyone stored their guns unloaded with a lock on them and had a burglar alarm at their house I would feel much better about it. Problem is that a unloaded, locked gun is not accessible to defend your home from a intruder. Loaded/unlocked guns kill little kids. I know from personal experience that have a gun(s) is not a deterrent to thieves. I worked as a alarm installers for over a decade.

The solution must obviously be dynamic given that dynamic nature of the problem. I dont know what the solution is but at some point the production of the actual murder tools would have to stop.