No more heelhooks for minors at EBI

[NameLikeNoOther]

I think eventually they will be back in once the rest of the competitors and gyms catch up. I have also realized that pulling them out was sadly an unfortunate reality and support Eddie's decision. It is not worth giving the trolls and anti-EBI type people such a tiny morsel that they can chew on and create an issue over. Within 5 years kids over 13 will be heel hooking in competitions for sure, can't stop evolution.

[Mike Nall]

I think eventually they will be back in once the rest of the competitors and gyms catch up. I have also realized that pulling them out was sadly an unfortunate reality and support Eddie's decision. It is not worth giving the trolls and anti-EBI type people such a tiny morsel that they can chew on and create an issue over. Within 5 years kids over 13 will be heel hooking in competitions for sure, can't stop evolution.

I think eventually they will be back in once the rest of the competitors and gyms catch up. I have also realized that pulling them out was sadly an unfortunate reality and support Eddie's decision. It is not worth giving the trolls and anti-EBI type people such a tiny morsel that they can chew on and create an issue over. Within 5 years kids over 13 will be heel hooking in competitions for sure, can't stop evolution.

Evolution can happen within reason. Not allowing children to do heel hooks on each other won't hamper any evolution. Have them train it, sure. Be a complete grappler an learn as much as you can. Don't be afraid of techniques that you should have a healthy respect for, Eddie without a doubt made the right call here.

[sean applegate]

Eddie made a great call. It wont help educate the ignorant people, but thats not the goal.

[NameLikeNoOther]

Evolution can happen within reason. Not allowing children to do heel hooks on each other won't hamper any evolution. Have them train it, sure. Be a complete grappler an learn as much as you can. Don't be afraid of techniques that you should have a healthy respect for, Eddie without a doubt made the right call here.

They said the same thing about kids doing inverted tricks in freestyle skiing and snowboarding 15 years. No flips allowed in competition at all and banned from some training facilities. I had my ski pass revoked a long time ago for doing a flip in the ski area boundary once. Now look at what kids are doing in ski and snowboard competition today; multiple inverts and with twists.

[NameLikeNoOther]

Examples of Evolution of Athletic Performance and risk in other sports

https://youtu.be/QmyoC6bYbmE

Example of Female Youth Evolution of Athletic Performance with extreme risk and national TV coverage.

https://youtu.be/P0zEaD56ls0?t=25
https://youtu.be/mTGyHI9POTw

Although banning the Heel Hook is correct decision at this time, I don't think it should stop the Vision of what is possible or could be possible in the future. Especially, since the ban is being driven by those who may have a limited perception of endless possibilities

[Mike Nall]

They said the same thing about kids doing inverted tricks in freestyle skiing and snowboarding 15 years. No flips allowed in competition at all and banned from some training facilities. I had my ski pass revoked a long time ago for doing a flip in the ski area boundary once. Now look at what kids are doing in ski and snowboard competition today; multiple inverts and with twists.

I think you might be misunderstanding what I'm saying. With flips and inverted tricks you at least have a great deal of control over your own body.

When you're inside of a submissions, you are largely at the whim of what the other person decides to do. Luckily 99% grapplers will let go as soon as you tap, but it's disingenuous to say that heel hooks aren't more dangerous than most other joint locks. Does that mean they're too dangerous to train or that kids "can't handle them?" Of course not. It's important to learn this stuff early. For what it's worth, I think kimuras aren't very far from heel hooks on the danger scale. So I'm not picking on heel hooks.

With heel hooks there are a few realities that just need to be respected. They attack the joint perpendicular to its range of motion. For this reason you can't resist them by trying to curl your leg or arm in for a kneebar or armbar. There are fewer pain receptors in the knee ligaments, and the physical effort to finish one is less than other leg locks.

These kids matches at EBI are exhibition matches that aren't even for money. Eddie made a smart choice is my main point, and my second point is that heel hooks aren't some scary boogey man but they simply are in fact more dangerous than most other submissions. Not a bad thing, but true.

I just don't see how letting kids train heel hooks but not letting them do them in a high profile PPV or TV event is slowing down or stopping any kind of progress or evolution. Skilled grapplers will evolve the sport in the gym and in competition no matter what, which is a good thing, the sport is evolving at a fast rate, and thankfully the stigma on heel hooks is getting better.

[Kurzy]

When you're inside of a submissions, you are largely at the whim of what the other person decides to do. Luckily 99% grapplers will let go as soon as you tap, but it's disingenuous to say that heel hooks aren't more dangerous than most other joint locks.

See, this is the part I am not sure about. I mean, even a simple arm bar can EASILY break an opponents arm with a simple raising of the hips. If you have the armbar deep enough, you can break an arm simply by leaning back and not even getting to the point where you have to raise your hips. So I agree with the sentiment that you are at your opponents mercy in a heel hook, but you are at their mercy with any joint lock.

The amount of torque required to finish a heel hook is minimal once the leg is trapped/secured and the torque is ready to be applied, but the same applies to a standard armbar. Once it is locked in tight and properly in position, very little torque or movement is required to break the joint.

I think that some people just aren't used to Heel Hooks and don't know how to defend them, or they don't give them the respect they deserve, but I just don't know about labeling them as "More dangerous" than any other said joint lock technique, when any joint lock technique can cause joint destruction if the person doesn't apply the technique carefully and with control.

When we roll at our club, there are some guys that are beastly with Heel Hooks. When they get my leg trapped, and I know there is no wiggle room for me to get my leg out fast enough, I tap. Often times they never even had a chance to get the arm under the heel to apply the torque before I tap, because I recognize that my leg is now in their possession and I know I'm not getting it back so I give them the sub, then slap, bump and roll again.

In my experience, people from two things:
1) Having a sub put on by someone who uses no control
2) Not tapping when they're caught

[sean applegate]

Heel hooks are more dangerous than most other subs in today's grappling landscape. It has nothing to do with the actual submission, though. It is peoples ignorance that creates danger. If most people had no idea how to defend a kimura, they would receive the same level of fear.

[Mike Nall]

Heel hooks are more dangerous than most other subs in today's grappling landscape. It has nothing to do with the actual submission, though. It is peoples ignorance that creates danger. If most people had no idea how to defend a kimura, they would receive the same level of fear.

I think that's 99% true for sure. I think 1% is the technique itself but most people think it's largely the technique that's the problem, which is clearly not true.

See, this is the part I am not sure about. I mean, even a simple arm bar can EASILY break an opponents arm with a simple raising of the hips. If you have the armbar deep enough, you can break an arm simply by leaning back and not even getting to the point where you have to raise your hips. So I agree with the sentiment that you are at your opponents mercy in a heel hook, but you are at their mercy with any joint lock.

My fault. I thought I made it clear that that was the case with any submission. I was comparing the sport of grappling to skiing or skateboarding where you don't have to worry about someone else when your safety is on the line.

The amount of torque required to finish a heel hook is minimal once the leg is trapped/secured and the torque is ready to be applied, but the same applies to a standard armbar. Once it is locked in tight and properly in position, very little torque or movement is required to break the joint.

Totally agree. And I think we'd both probably agree that this difference between people getting hurt inside of an armbar versus a heel hook is largely because people are exposed to armbars from day one and some people don't get exposed to heel hooks until they're competing live in an advanced division and their unfamiliarity causes them to injure themselves.

I think that some people just aren't used to Heel Hooks and don't know how to defend them, or they don't give them the respect they deserve, but I just don't know about labeling them as "More dangerous" than any other said joint lock technique, when any joint lock technique can cause joint destruction if the person doesn't apply the technique carefully and with control.

We mostly agree here. I have to be very careful because I'm making a nuanced statement here that when written probably jumps off the screen more than I mean it to. By "more dangerous" I don't mean too dangerous or even anything to worry about. When I say it's more dangerous than most other joint locks, I don't mean by a large degree or that it's a huge difference, but even John Danaher who is basically the innovator of all of these wonderful heel hooking systems right now--he's the first to say that there are things about the heel hook that set it apart from other joint locks. Again, I'll cover a couple, without assigning judgement.

- They attack a joint perpendicular to its range of motion. I'm not sure any other submission does this. Hyperextension and compression locks don't do this, and other twisting joint locks like kimuras or toe holds are moving the joint along a path of motion, but they just take it farther than it should go. A perfect heel hook has that added "bridge" into the side of the lnee that you always see Cummings and Tonon do for example, and that's just not there in other joint locks according to Danaher and Cummings and the twister is the only other example I can really think of (pulls the neck/spine sideways)

- You can feel pressure in your knee being attacked, but there isn't "pain" like there is with other joint locks. There are less pain receptors on the knee ligaments.

Those 2 points alone combined with people's misunderstanding, fear, and bad ideas like trying to roll out of a heel hook contribute to some of the added danger. Again please understand I'm advocating learning them very early on and the inside heel hook is my #1 favorite joint lock. These dangers are not unhealthy and should not keep us from learning these wonderful techniques.

When we roll at our club, there are some guys that are beastly with Heel Hooks. When they get my leg trapped, and I know there is no wiggle room for me to get my leg out fast enough, I tap. Often times they never even had a chance to get the arm under the heel to apply the torque before I tap, because I recognize that my leg is now in their possession and I know I'm not getting it back so I give them the sub, then slap, bump and roll again.

Smart man. I do the same thing. When my toes get trapped and their grip closes I tap right away and I feel able to roll very safely with them.

In my experience, people get hurt from two things:
1) Having a sub put on by someone who uses no control
2) Not tapping when they're caught

Totally on board. Heel hooks are the plane crashes of grappling. They aren't very likely but they're not outside the realm of possibility, and if it does happen, it really sucks. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't use them, because like flying, it's very efficient.

[Chris Herzog]

Heel hooks are more dangerous than most other subs in today's grappling landscape. It has nothing to do with the actual submission, though. It is peoples ignorance that creates danger. If most people had no idea how to defend a kimura, they would receive the same level of fear.

Exactly.